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harveypj Offline
#21 Posted : 30 March 2008 18:16:04(UTC)
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overrestored Offline
#22 Posted : 30 March 2008 18:43:20(UTC)
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In the scenario where there was no way to tell which was which... there is no difference. I agree... there is no tangible difference.... In the purely technical sense... neither is better.

It is a spiritual or intangible thing I suppose... but one cannot deny that if you know that one car was built by mr Dannenhauer and mr Stauss... even if it was highly restored and repanelled... and the other car was just built last week by a shop in Orange County... there is a world of difference. A very subjective subject... no real correct answers I think.

My subjective feelings:

one has stood the test of time... one is an icon. the other is a testament to that icon's success.


I also agree with the Triggers Broom comment.
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JD Offline
#23 Posted : 30 March 2008 20:29:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: "overrestored" Go to Quoted Post

there is a world of difference. A very subjective subject... no real correct answers I think.


Not just very subjective - entirely subjective, I would say.

There is no difference - unless you are told that one is newer.

I don't really feel the same as you about highly restored/reconstructed cars, where the visible history is washed away. Only about cars that are pretty much as they left the factory, including traces of ageing and use, though they are obviously few and far between. Where the history is visible in other words.

I enjoy looking at all types and condition of vehicles BTW, including highly restored cars, (before anyone jumps on me). I'm just trying to illustrate my point.

Tricky subject isn't it!

Edited by user 31 March 2008 11:50:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "

'50 Karmann Offline
#24 Posted : 30 March 2008 21:01:46(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: "overrestored" Go to Quoted Post
one is an icon. the other is a testament to that icon's success.


Summed up in a sentence.
There is no other way the two can be compared.
Like a &#163;50 note and a forgery.Maybe you can't see the difference but ones not worth &#163;50.
JD Offline
#25 Posted : 30 March 2008 23:15:52(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: "'50 Karmann" Go to Quoted Post
[
...but ones not worth &#163;50.


It is if its good enough! Wink BigGrin
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#26 Posted : 31 March 2008 11:13:03(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: "JD" Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: "'50 Karmann" Go to Quoted Post
[
...but ones not worth &#163;50.


It is if its good enough! Wink BigGrin


Only to someone wearing beer goggles.
"it'll wreck the patina you haven't worked so hard to create" - 50Karmann
JD Offline
#27 Posted : 31 March 2008 11:58:14(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: "'50 Karmann" Go to Quoted Post
...not worth &#163;50.


Just like this! Laugh

"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "

overrestored Offline
#28 Posted : 31 March 2008 18:53:57(UTC)
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JD,

I understand what you mean about restored cars.

The only cars I am buying lately... are totally original in every way. 100% original paint, engine, interior, chassis, etc.

No restoration... no repair... no new trim... no paint touchup... no new rubber...

My 1970 911t is like this... 36k miles... only parts replaced are wipers, tires and brakes... no chain tensioner upgrade... no modifications in any way.

So I think in this respect we agree. Once the car has been restored or "overrestored"... it loses something. And thus if a restored car is sitting next to an exact replica... it isn't that much different.

Whereas... a replica sitting next to an original unrestored car.. is a world of difference.

Is this what you mean?

Edited by user 31 March 2008 18:55:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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overrestored Offline
#29 Posted : 31 March 2008 19:09:25(UTC)
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JD,

The trouble... is that with a lot of coachbuilts... they were not preserved well... thus they all need restoring.

Edited here... to explain that I do feel cars should be driven!... not stacked away! end of edit.

I only know of one Beeskow that is original and presentable. The rest were all too far gone to really be presentable... and thus they were restored... Mine needed about 20% of the passenger door re-skinned... the two license plate "eyebrows" replaced, and about 30 percent of the engine "decklid" replaced. Otherwise it is the original car under new paint.

Anyway...

for me... it kinda goes like this. with points for desireability. 100 points being the best.

level one... 100 original cars
level two... 50 restored original cars
level three 35 rebodied original cars
level four... 10 replica cars

something like that anyway. good original is worth twice perfect restored in my mind. We just have a bit of disagreement on restored versus replica.

I think we basically share the same opinion about top level cars... but we have a few degrees of difference down there on level 3 and 4.

Edited by user 31 March 2008 19:13:45(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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JD Offline
#30 Posted : 31 March 2008 20:17:49(UTC)
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Oh, I think we pretty much agree. I'm just trying to show a different viewpoint. BigGrin

Paint is a funny one though. It seems odd to get worked up over a thin layer of easily replaced cellulose protective coating, but when it lends so much to the look of the car, then it does seem to be important. Then again, there are plenty of old restorations now that have their own patina, after 20 years. Which looks great IMHO. I thought I had the original carpet in my car - until I found a reciept from 1986!!

Its also true that, while in theory an exact replica would be indistinguishable from an original car - in reality,that is seldom the case. Look at most repro parts.

Another thing that really confuses me, was when I looked up the word "restore" and it was defined as "put back to original". I thought things were only original once? As soon as you change anything it is no longer original. Apparently not!

We should probably all learn to worry less about this kind of thing. BigGrin
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "

mrsherbie Offline
#31 Posted : 31 March 2008 22:04:12(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: "overrestored" Go to Quoted Post
JD,

The trouble... is that with a lot of coachbuilts... they were not preserved well... thus they all need restoring.



We are learning this with our preA! We are finding it hard to get used to the fact that the interior cavity areas were not treated directly during original build process so there is a very light dusting of what is in effect surface rust in hidden areas that have never been exposed to damp. We are replacing floor in this car but yet both our beetles that are 5 years older! have almost perfect original floors and heater channels! The body treatment of the Porsche seems to be way behind what VW were doing to their brand new beetles at the same time! Dipping? certainly primering all the surfaces!
It is very frustrating and annoying that the more expensive car is so much more fragile!
"it'll wreck the patina you haven't worked so hard to create" - 50Karmann
harveypj Offline
#32 Posted : 31 March 2008 22:12:19(UTC)
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Blink
Those '*******' boys have gone one step too far with this one Laugh
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JD Offline
#33 Posted : 31 March 2008 23:10:32(UTC)
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Rubbish, it looks much better that way! What are you? Some kind of playa hater or something?

"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "

harveypj Offline
#34 Posted : 01 April 2008 08:55:12(UTC)
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Laugh Oh, now thats much better Laugh Laugh
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Tina Offline
#35 Posted : 02 April 2008 12:16:47(UTC)
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like new
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overrestored Offline
#36 Posted : 02 April 2008 18:43:57(UTC)
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and here... after a day or two with the italians.

Maybe a few more weeks and it will look good as new!
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overrestored Offline
#37 Posted : 02 April 2008 18:47:11(UTC)
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virtual restoration sure is a lot easier than actual physical restoration.

I say we all pitch in some photoshop time and get this car back on the road!
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2splits Offline
#38 Posted : 04 April 2008 01:51:22(UTC)
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I very much agree with the "original" versus restored debate. I VERY MUCH prefer original, unrestored, perhaps not perfect cars over a perfectly restored car. I have owned many "original" cars including:

- a 23,000 57 ragtop
- a 85,000 52 hardtop
- 57 356 coupe (currently own)
- 51 60,000 mile 51 ragtop (currently own)

I have enjoyed these cars greatly. I made a mistake when I restored my 40,000 original mile 55 convertible, and will not do so again.

They are much more fun to drive, etc., when they are original. You don't have to worry about the mistakes and shortcuts other people made.

The ONLY restored car I have bought that is actually at a standard I am happy with is my 58 ghia currently.

Kevin

-51 Split Rag
-58 Ghia Cab with Okrasa
-57 356
Tina Offline
#39 Posted : 04 April 2008 11:24:15(UTC)
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THAT S WHAT WE ALWAYS SAID !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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