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zelensis61 Offline
#1 Posted : 17 November 2014 19:39:38(UTC)
zelensis61


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Found something interesting. A pict from the Swiss main dealer from very late 48 show us a prototype. The other drawing shows the same car...but with flush mounted dual chrom horns.... The same style as from the Ringel workshop. And this gives again feed to the whereabouts of the Radclyffe roadster....also with the flush mounted chrome dual horns. The cut on the front window is the same, the roof top with the chrome or alu trim on the fabric..... That looks all so simular?

What do you think about it?
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ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective

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usariemen Offline
#2 Posted : 17 November 2014 21:19:30(UTC)
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No Peter.
It is similar to the Radclyffe. Very similar.
But an other car.



There was what to me is prototype no.1


prototype no.2


and prototype no.3


With the very unique hubcaps and even the same number plate it
was prototype no.2

Edited by user 17 November 2014 21:43:45(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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usariemen Offline
#3 Posted : 17 November 2014 21:57:04(UTC)
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The door windows and other details where updatet in 1949 or 1950.
I have no clear shot of the front.


But it seems it had the chrome horns in the fenders too.

Edited by user 17 November 2014 22:02:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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zelensis61 Offline
#4 Posted : 19 November 2014 21:10:05(UTC)
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Carsten, Thanks for the info :-) BUT: The first pict I posted here from the paper from Jan 49 shows the 2 Chrome horns flush in the fender. The licence plate is BR289362. The Updated car in the Schultz garden wears the same licence plate.
Another thing is that the Schultz car in the garden shows the dual Ivory dash inserts... That is or an update or it was very early installed...Wonder who invented it, just like the side trim and grooved bumpers.
The dull pict from the car in the factory with 2 man shows also a flush mounted horn, probably 2 but hard to see.
I wonder if the Vin nr is known of the radclyffe roadster.

I also wonder if there were actualy 3 different prototypes, now that it is clear that the Schultz car was updated.
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#5 Posted : 19 November 2014 22:10:19(UTC)
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Or maybe VW wanted the exposure of the new convertible but a photo of the prototype was not yet available, so they had a photo of the radclyffe airbrushed and sent it over because it would be close enough? (airbrushing of photos was extremely common in these days)
Rob Amos

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usariemen Offline
#6 Posted : 19 November 2014 23:36:25(UTC)
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Hi Peter
The Radclyffe had total differend air intakes in the rear hood.

So it was none of the other three.

Proto one had four slots on each side.
Proto two and three had five slots on each side.

Proto two was updated with the later serial aluminium door window
frames, the sqare rear view mirror, the ivory speedo and clock pods
but kept the unique rear lid and hubcaps and the little trim stripes
on the front Fenders above the headlights.
The pics in the garden where taken when the serial Heb productioin was on.
In later 1949 or even 1950. As there was an serial Heb with him there.


Proto three is an other car for me.
It has a light roof, a light two tone paint, chromed "nose" and taillights
and no crank bracket on the bumper. The pic with the little beetle on it
was taken in 1952. Unlikely that it was number two with an all new look that fast.
So it seems to be a car on his own.
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zelensis61 Offline
#7 Posted : 20 November 2014 12:23:14(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: pre67vw Go to Quoted Post
Or maybe VW wanted the exposure of the new convertible but a photo of the prototype was not yet available, so they had a photo of the radclyffe airbrushed and sent it over because it would be close enough? (airbrushing of photos was extremely common in these days)


Rob, I can hardly believe that. This because the car that is airbrushed, is in fact the one from the garden in Schultz house. The licence plate is the same.
I wonder if the old licence plates in Germany can be traced towards a Vin nr? I have the vin nrs from the proto's and from the first Hebs also...If the info I got is correct, they had indeed 3 different cars as a proto.

Carsten, It is true that the engine cover is different...but I have to say that the history of the Radclyffe is not that big.... built, driven and wrecked. But no dates, no info on vin or what and where happend.
The details like side window, roof line, cutted front pillars, sema location is pretty close to the black Schultz car, like close as in the same form and place.

I know that One proto was used by Hebmuller, 1 was used by Schultz and 1 was used at VW, A 4the car was made for the geneva show in march 49. I have the Vin nrs of those and proof that they are correct. But nothing on the radclyffe.... It will be a secret for ever I think.

ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective

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#8 Posted : 20 November 2014 16:00:28(UTC)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're suggesting that the Radclyffe Roadster 'became' the Heb prototype #1?
Rob Amos

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zelensis61 Offline
#9 Posted : 20 November 2014 19:28:40(UTC)
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Rob, I am not sure, have no proof but the details on both cars are so simular that it is most likely. Maybe the remains of the wrecked are used.
If someone could give details of the wreck... Maybe only the rear was damaged? Who knows. I just keep wondering.
Unsure
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pre67vw Offline
#10 Posted : 20 November 2014 20:16:19(UTC)
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Interesting idea!

I've lined up the two photos in Photoshop and the side window shapes are EXACTLY the same, that couldn't have happened by accident. However, I personally don't think that the quality of the Radcliffe car was anywhere near good enough, with that bar going across behind the seat, presumably to give it some strength. To take that rough car when it had also been used for a while plus maybe crashed, it doesn't make sense for Hebmuller to 'restore' it?

What year is the vin from #1?
Rob Amos

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zelensis61 Offline
#11 Posted : 20 November 2014 21:40:54(UTC)
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Rob, I wish I knew what car was first..
I will keep searching ;-) The history will be something that keep me bussy...

ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective

usariemen Offline
#12 Posted : 20 November 2014 21:44:42(UTC)
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Well, it did for sure not happen by accident.
The Radclyffe was quite straight copied.
As far as I got told. The VW dealer Schulz from Essen was a friend
of the Hebmüller Family. He frequently was in Wolfsburg and there
he saw the Radclyffe car. The story goes that he pointed the Hebmüllers
into the direction to make a car like that because as a VW dealer he saw
the potential in selling those.
The pics in the garden where taken at the Schulz house but I have no Information
that the car was his then. As far as I know it was owned and used by the Hebmüllers.
When these early cars where made, as extremely "inspiired" by the Radclyffe as they are,
why shouldn´t they not also have copied the detail of the horns in the Fenders?
I can´t see much of a mystery. Why should that not be just differend cars?
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#13 Posted : 26 November 2014 21:29:00(UTC)
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It had the chromed horns in the fenders.
Can be seen in this pic.






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zelensis61 Offline
#14 Posted : 27 November 2014 10:42:05(UTC)
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Correct Carsten. I have that pict also. And that car still had the Sedan windshield. But with later doors and I guess they changed the top frame of the frontwindow. It will stay an item to discuss.. Until someone can come up with the proof, or the remains of those cars can be found.;-) Fingers crossed
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective

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#15 Posted : 18 January 2015 08:51:47(UTC)
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are the first 2 pictures drawings?? that could explain a lotRollEyes
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#16 Posted : 13 March 2015 00:54:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zelensis61 Go to Quoted Post
Carsten, Thanks for the info :-) BUT: The first pict I posted here from the paper from Jan 49 shows the 2 Chrome horns flush in the fender. The licence plate is BR289362. The Updated car in the Schultz garden wears the same licence plate.
Another thing is that the Schultz car in the garden shows the dual Ivory dash inserts... That is or an update or it was very early installed...Wonder who invented it, just like the side trim and grooved bumpers.
The dull pict from the car in the factory with 2 man shows also a flush mounted horn, probably 2 but hard to see.
I wonder if the Vin nr is known of the radclyffe roadster.

I also wonder if there were actualy 3 different prototypes, now that it is clear that the Schultz car was updated.


I was reading last week about how well the British kept records at the time they were running things.
Then they *should have recorded* the details of the car used to make the Radclyffe roadster; but where can the records be found now? Do Volkswagen still have them?


Mike

Mike
Texas
Nov. 1947 +
Febr 1949 shell
zelensis61 Offline
#17 Posted : 14 March 2015 20:08:00(UTC)
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If they did not used the Radclyffe car for the first heb, I only can guess they used parts of it; like the doors... about the records... The VW factory could give the answers to our questions but to get access to it, it is almost impossible

About the first 3 hebmullers, one was used by SCHULTZ, one was used by Hebmuller and one was used by VW to test them. The cars drove lot's of km on the roads
In okt 49, versuchswagen 1 in red made about 36611 km, versuchswagen 2 in black made +25000 kmm and versuchswagen 3 made + 48.000 km in testmodus. about versuchswagen nr 3 i do not know what color it had. And this info is 100% correctOMG




ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective

zelensis61 Offline
#18 Posted : 03 September 2015 18:15:55(UTC)
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Wel , after researching old stuff and new info; I came to this result: and I think it is stunning.
OMG
Prototype as we speak:
versuchswagen nr 14-1 in black and red had vin nr 90841 and built on 20 of jan.
Versuchswagen nr 14-2 in black had vin 96318 and is built on 22of feb
versuchswagen nr 14-3 in Black and elfenbein had vin nr 90908 ad is not known wnen built
versuchswagen nr 14-4 in black and red had vin 90842 and is built 21 of march and restored rebuilt as seen in Bad Camberg 4 years ago. This one was made at Volkswagen, not by Hebmuller.
This came from documents I have seen and are 100% correct.

Now, the pre-production started with :
Hebmuller body 1: 14-00001 had vin 96318 ( the same as versuchswagen 14-2 !!!! ) was Grey but painted over in BLACK
Hebmuller body 2:14-00002 had vin 10347x built on 16 of july Black Red color
Hebmuller body 3: 14-00003 had vin 10347x built on 17 th of july Black red color
hebmuller body 4: 14-00004 had vin 10332x built on 13 of july. black Ivory color

This came out of the registers in wolfsburg from the wagenbegleitkarten and are 100% correct. I put an x over the last nrs of car 2,3 and 4 for safety ...

Also preproduction as there are 25 ordered :
Hebmuller body 5: 14-00005 had vin 100620 built on 21 of june.
Hebmuller body 6: 14-00006 had vin 103325 built on 26 of june
Hebmuller body 7: 14-00007 had vin 100619 built on 16 of june

this came out of the current register and on these cars 100% correct.

So this is for me the proof that at least one car-or chassis was re-used and that the numbering is always strange and non-chronologic.
It is also the proof that no car is made in 1948. Only documents and drawings are known with dates from late 1948.
I have seen the documents but was not alowed to make copys. So I can not show the proof but I stand for what I write here.

Greetings. Peter
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective

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#19 Posted : 27 December 2015 17:13:49(UTC)
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Very interesting info for me here! ThumpUp
Been way too long since I visited these forums! Blushing
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zelensis61 on 28/12/2015(UTC)
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