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Rattletrap Offline
#141 Posted : 09 March 2011 18:45:54(UTC)
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48REME wrote:
That's because they had stopped the crash gearbox and cable brakes in 1964, I think.

Nail on head Nicolas.

48REME wrote:
Lovely car, I've seen a pic of it before, a very rare gem.

Rare, indeed.Cool

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losthillsguy Offline
#142 Posted : 09 March 2011 19:06:48(UTC)
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Rattletrap wrote:
These are not really a Standard model, but the base model known as the 1200A.Wink


I guess we will just have to agree to disagree! I went back and read your reasoning. It seems to be based on one mans opinion and the elimination of cable brakes. Also the designation of 1200A.

I'll end my defense of the Standard designation with these thoughts.
Here are my two top reasons why I think standards go beyond 1962
(there are more but I think this is enough)

1 VW says they do. Models 111,112,115,116 are standard models. There were many designations of different models for marketing purposes, but it's either a standard, deluxe, or convertible. The birth certificate makes no mention of 1200A

2. Progressive Refinement notes the change in brakes on models 111,112,115,116 in April of 1962.
It does not mention the end of these models or standards.

Another interesting change is the elimination of the wingnut front seat hold down in
2 August 1965. Certainly the big wingnut is an iconic standard feature.

Question: What is the first year of a 1200A? I thought it was 1965.

As we say in America, "You say tomato, I say tomahto"

Edited by user 10 March 2011 02:25:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Brian O'Kelly
California, USA
Central Coast Chapter, CA Vintage Volkswagen Club of America
JD Offline
#143 Posted : 09 March 2011 19:28:53(UTC)
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I´m with you Brian. If it isn´t any kind of Deluxe, then it´s a Standard, no matter what it was actually designated.

Here´s a `75 that I snapped. It´s not a Deluxe.

"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "

Rattletrap Offline
#144 Posted : 10 March 2011 10:24:30(UTC)
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JD wrote:
I´m with you Brian. If it isn´t any kind of Deluxe, then it´s a Standard, no matter what it was actually designated.

Here´s a `75 that I snapped. It´s not a Deluxe.
]

Thats because its the base model.Wink

And so if its not a Standard it must be a Deluxe, 1300s, 1500s etc right through to 1977 are Deluxe models.Confused Confused

Edited by user 10 March 2011 10:48:24(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Rattletrap Offline
#145 Posted : 10 March 2011 10:28:47(UTC)
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losthillsguy wrote:
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree! I went back and read your reasoning. It seems to be based on one mans opinion and the elimination of cable brakes. Also the designation of 1200A.

I'll end my defense of the Standard designation with these thoughts.
Here are my two top reasons why I think standards go beyond 1962

They do go beyond 1962, to 1963 infact.Wink

I have a 1975 1200 Beetle in my garden where it has laid for about 12 years among some bushes – it even has factory painted bumpers. So according to your logic I actually have one Standard model more than I thought in my collection. I'd better get on with the restoration then.Confused

The 1200A was the base model, and unlike the true Standard model (the continuing KdF Wagen), it was often used as a method of using up obsolete 1950's Deluxe parts from the factory, hence my 1200A with its '50s steering wheel and engine cover, and yours with the WHITE 3 spoke steering wheel. Harvey Simpson has a rare 1964 'base' model, it even has the crash box, oval engine lid and wing nut secured seats. It does however have hydraulic brakes. Harvey says that however it is not a Standard model but one of a batch built to use up obsolete 1950's parts including crash boxes.

Also with your argument all Beetles that are not the base 1200 model must be the known as Deluxes – a term dropped by VW long before the end of Beetle production.
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48REME Offline
#146 Posted : 10 March 2011 12:07:28(UTC)
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It is a bit of a grey area...it's clear that the terminology 'Standard' seems best suited to base cars with crash gear box and cable brakes but I think that after 1963 VW themselves thought it best that they evolve slightly to include hydraulic brakes and synchromesh gearbox, whilst retaining the painted handles and hubcaps, no trim and the three spoke steering wheel, updated to a more cheerful white finish. More importantly though, it seems that VW kept to the original codes, hence this 1966 called a type 115, just like a 1950s Standard would have been. I think it's probably a personal view as to where the Standards actually stopped. Personally, as long as the car has sloping headlamps, painted accessories, a three-spoke steering wheel and the same factory code as the earlier models had, it's a Standard for me but I also understand John's purist concerns when it comes to crash gearbox and cable brakes.Smile

Edited by user 10 March 2011 12:09:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rattletrap Offline
#147 Posted : 10 March 2011 12:28:34(UTC)
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48REME wrote:
… it's a Standard for me but I also understand John's purist concerns when it comes to crash gearbox and cable brakes.Smile

An interesting twist on this Nicolas is my 1949 Deluxe with its cable brakes, crash box and 3 spoke steering wheel.Blink
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JD Offline
#148 Posted : 10 March 2011 17:18:05(UTC)
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Rattletrap wrote:
Thats because its the base model.Wink

And so if its not a Standard it must be a Deluxe, 1300s, 1500s etc right through to 1977 are Deluxe models.Confused Confused


It is not a Deluxe. It´s below a normal 1200. No fuel gauge, door panels with visible fittings and a reserve tap, in 1975.
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "

Sunroof53 Offline
#149 Posted : 11 March 2011 06:58:33(UTC)
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Reminds me of an ex german army beetle i had .Mechanical fuel gauge from the 60s ,no bonnet trim or badge and the roof lining was only in the centre part.There were also some signs that it may have been 6V .I also had a jeans beetle that was based on the 1200a with no bonnet trim or badge .It was a great car and my wife used it for many years doing the school runs etc.

Edited by user 11 March 2011 07:03:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rattletrap Offline
#150 Posted : 11 March 2011 09:39:25(UTC)
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JD wrote:
…It´s below a normal 1200. No fuel gauge, door panels with visible fittings and a reserve tap, in 1975.

Yep, a base model it is. You are not really trying to tell me that a basic 1975 Beetle is the continuing KdF Wagen – renamed the Standard model in 1949 when the Deluxe was introduced. They finished in 1963. Shame on you
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Rattletrap Offline
#151 Posted : 11 March 2011 09:44:28(UTC)
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Sunroof53 wrote:
Reminds me of an ex german army beetle i had .Mechanical fuel gauge from the 60s ,no bonnet trim or badge and the roof lining was only in the centre part.There were also some signs that it may have been 6V .I also had a jeans beetle that was based on the 1200a with no bonnet trim or badge .It was a great car and my wife used it for many years doing the school runs etc.


I had a great base model '75 too, exposed car door cards, real cheap cloth seats and even no glove box lid or fuel gauge. That's as basic as the base model gets.Wink

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pre67vw Offline
#152 Posted : 11 March 2011 09:51:38(UTC)
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I can't say I know to much about standards - what's the difference between a 'standard' and a 'base model'? They seem the same to me, just a different name.
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Rattletrap Offline
#153 Posted : 11 March 2011 10:39:11(UTC)
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pre67vw wrote:
I can't say I know to much about standards - what's the difference between a 'standard' and a 'base model'? They seem the same to me, just a different name.

Black 3-spoke steering wheel, crash box, cable brakes…

Nicolas (48RME), where are you…Unsure
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pre67vw Offline
#154 Posted : 11 March 2011 10:52:04(UTC)
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Rattletrap wrote:
Black 3-spoke steering wheel, crash box, cable brakes…



But is that just your opinion of what makes it a standard?

What I mean is that even deluxe's changed over the years, slightly better specs as they got newer, surely a standard would as well. You may be a purist and have a preference for earlier models, but thats a seperate thing.

For example I love cabrios and the earlier the better, but that doesn't mean that I don't think a 1303 cabrio is also a true cabrio.
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#155 Posted : 11 March 2011 13:30:02(UTC)
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pre67vw wrote:
But is that just your opinion of what makes it a standard?

What I mean is that even deluxe's changed over the years, slightly better specs as they got newer, surely a standard would as well. You may be a purist and have a preference for earlier models, but thats a seperate thing.

For example I love cabrios and the earlier the better, but that doesn't mean that I don't think a 1303 cabrio is also a true cabrio.

Labeling all the entry level Beetles as Standard models is like saying that all the others produced with exterior body trim and full headliner (from 1949 to 2003) are Deluxes, a term VW dropped years before Beetle production ended in Germany.Mellow

So for instance with your reasoning, a 1303 is actually Deluxe model with revised front layout. This of course is not so. Does Wolfsburg's records list among the myriad of Beetle changes the following;

1964 Standard model – hydraulic brakes fitted
1964 Standard model – full synchromesh gearbox fitted

No I doubt it does because its more like;

1964 Standard model discontinued
1964 1200A introduced to replace the Standard model

Wink

Edited by user 11 March 2011 13:33:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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54 Gertie Offline
#156 Posted : 11 March 2011 13:42:50(UTC)
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Who cares? 1200a, standard model, does it really matter? May as well call them Wilfred for all I care, awesome little cars. Fascinating things, I find it quite amazing that they found ways to make 'normal' beetles more basic and spartan Laugh
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#157 Posted : 11 March 2011 13:54:39(UTC)
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I've just looked it up in progressive refinements...

30th Oct 1964
Volkswagen 1200A: Now fully synchronised transmission, Formerly: Non synchronised transmission.

Which suggests to me that VW saw the 1200A as continuation of the standard model rather than a new model...
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pre67vw Offline
#158 Posted : 11 March 2011 14:09:22(UTC)
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54 Gertie wrote:
Who cares? 1200a, standard model, does it really matter? May as well call them Wilfred for all I care, awesome little cars. Fascinating things, I find it quite amazing that they found ways to make 'normal' beetles more basic and spartan Laugh


Yep, I know what you mean. But it annoys me when people talk about Barn door busses and say it's because of the double doors - I don't want to be 'that' person to the Standard guys Laugh Cool
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Rattletrap Offline
#159 Posted : 11 March 2011 14:18:21(UTC)
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pre67vw wrote:
I've just looked it up in progressive refinements...

30th Oct 1964
Volkswagen 1200A: Now fully synchronised transmission, Formerly: Non synchronised transmission.

Which suggests to me that VW saw the 1200A as continuation of the standard model rather than a new model...

By 1964 the 1200A had replaced the Standard model none the less as proven by your picture clipping.Wink

Edited by user 11 March 2011 14:19:25(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Rattletrap Offline
#160 Posted : 11 March 2011 14:23:48(UTC)
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54 Gertie wrote:
Who cares? 1200a, standard model, does it really matter?


I do. One's the incredibly historic KdF Wagen still in production, the other isn't. ThumpUp

But then, in the end it was not really the same when the split-window was taken out.Sad

Edited by user 11 March 2011 14:26:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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