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Posted by: 55Kab - 18 July 2010 11:43:56
So here's one to ponder... After reading all the chat about Peppercorn on both here and Vzi, and given there's a Bad Camberg thread on the Samba which has turned to talk of only stock pre-57 vehicles being allowed to register for the event, I got to thinking what consitutes a Vintage VW and are we in danger of killing the desire to own and drive a Vintage VW long term for those that currently have no interest in them by stating an event as big as Bad Camberg should only accept stock car's rather than just pre-57 cars? Controversial perhaps, but my view is a Vintage VW constitutes all vehicles manufactured before and up to the end of the 6v sloping headlight era irrespective of whether the vehicle has been modified or not. Of course this open's another debate which is when is a modified VW not a modified VW? For my money, if the OG body is still on the OG pan and the vehicle looks similar to how it would have done when new, then to an extent, every other modification is acceptable. As many if not all of you know, my car is a comparitive rarity on our roads yet will probably be the only one that has been modified. The question the Peppercorn and Samba thread's make me ask myself is...when finished, will my car be a Vintage VW? I know the answer to this, but I just wonder because of its not acceptance due to it not being stock. Are we starting to alienate those that may want to restore, cherish and drive 50+ year old VW's in the future? Over the past few months I've counted at least 15-20 nice early (56-65) project car's that have come up for sale, but I bet only 1 or 2 of them, if that, will be purchased for a full stock (Vintage VW?) restoration. Does that matter? If someone buys an OG UK RHD Oval that is really fit for the scrapyard, but fully rebuilds it into say an Old School Cal-Look car, does the fact it's not stock mean it's not a Vintage VW? I don't think so. Let the debate begin!

Posted by: 55Kab - 18 July 2010 11:43:56

So here's one to ponder... After reading all the chat about Peppercorn on both here and Vzi, and given there's a Bad Camberg thread on the Samba which has turned to talk of only stock pre-57 vehicles being allowed to register for the event, I got to thinking what consitutes a Vintage VW and are we in danger of killing the desire to own and drive a Vintage VW long term for those that currently have no interest in them by stating an event as big as Bad Camberg should only accept stock car's rather than just pre-57 cars? Controversial perhaps, but my view is a Vintage VW constitutes all vehicles manufactured before and up to the end of the 6v sloping headlight era irrespective of whether the vehicle has been modified or not. Of course this open's another debate which is when is a modified VW not a modified VW? For my money, if the OG body is still on the OG pan and the vehicle looks similar to how it would have done when new, then to an extent, every other modification is acceptable. As many if not all of you know, my car is a comparitive rarity on our roads yet will probably be the only one that has been modified. The question the Peppercorn and Samba thread's make me ask myself is...when finished, will my car be a Vintage VW? I know the answer to this, but I just wonder because of its not acceptance due to it not being stock. Are we starting to alienate those that may want to restore, cherish and drive 50+ year old VW's in the future? Over the past few months I've counted at least 15-20 nice early (56-65) project car's that have come up for sale, but I bet only 1 or 2 of them, if that, will be purchased for a full stock (Vintage VW?) restoration. Does that matter? If someone buys an OG UK RHD Oval that is really fit for the scrapyard, but fully rebuilds it into say an Old School Cal-Look car, does the fact it's not stock mean it's not a Vintage VW? I don't think so. Let the debate begin!

Posted by: JD - 18 July 2010 12:00:59
[quote=55Kab] Let the debate begin... [/quote] ...again!:d I don´t know, I like to see a bit of variety at shows. A row of identical stock, black, 56 ovals soon gets boring! And the more you get into it, the more difficult it becomes to decide where to draw the line on stock. Vintage speed? Not stock. Accessories? Also not stock. Ugly modern radial tyres (My [i]favorite[/i]on a vintage car!) definitely not stock!

Posted by: JD - 18 July 2010 12:00:59

[quote=55Kab] Let the debate begin... [/quote] ...again!:d I don´t know, I like to see a bit of variety at shows. A row of identical stock, black, 56 ovals soon gets boring! And the more you get into it, the more difficult it becomes to decide where to draw the line on stock. Vintage speed? Not stock. Accessories? Also not stock. Ugly modern radial tyres (My [i]favorite[/i]on a vintage car!) definitely not stock!

Posted by: harveypj - 18 July 2010 18:10:27
[quote=55Kab] my view is a Vintage VW constitutes all vehicles manufactured before and up to the end of the 6v sloping headlight era [/quote] I go with that, although I do consider the 25/30hp eras the pick of the bunch. I'm not as hung up on the whole oval this, oval that syndrome as others are. I like anything with semaphores. ANY car 50+ years old that has never been nor needs welding, has the original engine and interior is special. As is any 50 year old car still on the road quite frankly. Its a shame that 57 seems to be the cut of in a lot of cases. I think it was a geat move by the historic club this year pushing the entry criteria of the display at Stanford hall out to include all pre 1960 cars.

Posted by: harveypj - 18 July 2010 18:10:27

[quote=55Kab] my view is a Vintage VW constitutes all vehicles manufactured before and up to the end of the 6v sloping headlight era [/quote] I go with that, although I do consider the 25/30hp eras the pick of the bunch. I'm not as hung up on the whole oval this, oval that syndrome as others are. I like anything with semaphores. ANY car 50+ years old that has never been nor needs welding, has the original engine and interior is special. As is any 50 year old car still on the road quite frankly. Its a shame that 57 seems to be the cut of in a lot of cases. I think it was a geat move by the historic club this year pushing the entry criteria of the display at Stanford hall out to include all pre 1960 cars.

Posted by: pre67vw - 18 July 2010 19:54:03
This has been debated time and again, but I'll chip in again anyway :lol: Camberg and Hessisch are special events, and to start allowing cars in that don't fit the theme dilutes them. To me it doesn't matter how rare your car is, that's not the criteria - I'd prefer to see a nice stock oval over a lowered whatever. Camberg has always been pre 57 - with coachbuilts up to 67. I don't see any reason to change it now... I like all the sloping headlight models, hence this site. What about old-speed? To me, it's period correct - that's what makes it acceptable to me.

Posted by: pre67vw - 18 July 2010 19:54:03

This has been debated time and again, but I'll chip in again anyway :lol: Camberg and Hessisch are special events, and to start allowing cars in that don't fit the theme dilutes them. To me it doesn't matter how rare your car is, that's not the criteria - I'd prefer to see a nice stock oval over a lowered whatever. Camberg has always been pre 57 - with coachbuilts up to 67. I don't see any reason to change it now... I like all the sloping headlight models, hence this site. What about old-speed? To me, it's period correct - that's what makes it acceptable to me.

Posted by: JD - 18 July 2010 20:18:21
[quote=pre67vw] I like all the sloping headlight models, hence this site. What about old-speed? To me, it's period correct - that's what makes it acceptable to me. [/quote] Sooo.... BRMS? 1965. Fuchs wheels? 1966. First mention of lowering the front is in a German book in 1965. So the pieces are all in place. I do know what you mean, but its tough to define it.

Posted by: pre67vw - 18 July 2010 21:00:50
So there you go then, camberg is pre 57 so that rules all of that out!

Posted by: JD - 18 July 2010 22:26:55
[quote=pre67vw]So there you go then, camberg is pre 57 so that rules all of that out![/quote] Huh! There they go again with that Oval window fascism! I´m with HarveyPJ on this. That, or it should be up to 30horsers only!:p

Posted by: GKL 7 - 18 July 2010 23:29:25
A Volkswagen ceases to be vintage after March 1953:twisted:

Posted by: harveypj - 19 July 2010 00:49:33
[quote='50 Karmann]A Volkswagen ceases to be vintage after March 1953:twisted: [/quote] I don't want to burst anyones bubble, but from what I have found searching on the web it appears that the 'Vintage' era lasted from the end of world war 1, in 1919 until 1930.

Posted by: pre67vw - 19 July 2010 10:06:33
[quote=harveypj]I don't want to burst anyones bubble, but from what I have found searching on the web it appears that the 'Vintage' era lasted from the end of world war 1, in 1919 until 1930. [/quote] Yep, that's the definition of vintage outside of the VW world. I think the term Vintage VW is an American thing and was a way the magazines described old VW's that were not customised.

Posted by: oval56 - 19 July 2010 12:17:43
uhuhuh... what a discussion, i hate it, what is vintage, what is stock, what is stock vintage.... if something is modefied, we are out of stock & vintage :lol: :lol: but who cares.....:lol: :beer: :wink:

Posted by: vintagevw - 19 July 2010 19:11:13
I like both but keep mine stock, exept my 1969 Westy. :wink:

Posted by: GKL 7 - 19 July 2010 20:16:40
[quote=harveypj]I don't want to burst anyones bubble, but from what I have found searching on the web it appears that the 'Vintage' era lasted from the end of world war 1, in 1919 until 1930. [/quote] same as when a show is termed as "Veteren". Suppose Rob will blame the Germans for that one.

Posted by: JD - 19 July 2010 21:50:25
[quote='50 Karmann]same as when a show is termed as "Veteran". Suppose Rob will blame the Germans for that one. [/quote] It´s still better than "Oldtimer", or even "Youngtimer".

Posted by: vicpolky - 20 July 2010 00:03:34
It seems pretty straighforward, by year of course your car is a vintage VW, just like a roof-chopped vintage hot-rod is still a vintage car. But at the same time, we should respect the rights of show organisers to limit shows to stock, or stock-appearance cars if that's what they want to do. There's a place for everyone somewhere in this big ole world isn't there?

Posted by: 48REME - 20 July 2010 13:51:37
[quote=JD]Huh! There they go again with that Oval window fascism! I´m with HarveyPJ on this. That, or it should be up to 30horsers only!:p [/quote] I find it unacceptable that cars with semaphores aren't seen as vintage, they represent the second stage of transformation within the old beetle shape and the first step away from ovals, whilst still retaining the semaphores and small lights. These are now over 50 years old. Years ago, vintage shows accepted ovals and splits when they were not even 50! I just find it so dull and boring to see just ovals and splits when it would actually enrich a line up to show the next stage, if only to serve as a means of comparison. Mind you, if you don't have a Hebmüller, a pre-October 52 cabrio or a KDF (you can get away with a late 40s), you really are at the bottom of the vintage VW scene class system!:lol: And the more fans strive to get their hands on one the fashionable above to uphold a certain credibility in the scene, the more common they're starting to get at shows. No offence meant, I love and grew up around these earlier cars but if that's all that is acceptable now, then let's all scrap our unworthy 'late' oldies and walk away from the hobby with an apology for having dared to mix with the vintage jet-set ! It's more hard work than fun really, these days...:lol:

Posted by: 48REME - 20 July 2010 13:51:37

[quote=JD]Huh! There they go again with that Oval window fascism! I´m with HarveyPJ on this. That, or it should be up to 30horsers only!:p [/quote] I find it unacceptable that cars with semaphores aren't seen as vintage, they represent the second stage of transformation within the old beetle shape and the first step away from ovals, whilst still retaining the semaphores and small lights. These are now over 50 years old. Years ago, vintage shows accepted ovals and splits when they were not even 50! I just find it so dull and boring to see just ovals and splits when it would actually enrich a line up to show the next stage, if only to serve as a means of comparison. Mind you, if you don't have a Hebmüller, a pre-October 52 cabrio or a KDF (you can get away with a late 40s), you really are at the bottom of the vintage VW scene class system!:lol: And the more fans strive to get their hands on one the fashionable above to uphold a certain credibility in the scene, the more common they're starting to get at shows. No offence meant, I love and grew up around these earlier cars but if that's all that is acceptable now, then let's all scrap our unworthy 'late' oldies and walk away from the hobby with an apology for having dared to mix with the vintage jet-set ! It's more hard work than fun really, these days...:lol:

Posted by: dp - 20 July 2010 15:06:18
[quote=48REME]I find it unacceptable that cars with semaphores aren't seen as vintage, they represent the second stage of transformation within the old beetle shape and the first step away from ovals, whilst still retaining the semaphores and small lights. [/quote] Totally agree, but if you need to draw a line, where? If all semaphore cars, what about the US cars? If all 30hp cars, what about the other small window cars? If all small window cars, what about the other 6 volt cars? But then surely a 67 split can’t be excluded because it has 12 volts? My personal take is that each classification of a VW (Vintage, Resto Cal, Cal Look, German Look etc etc) has a set of implied rules that mean different things to different people. If in your mind your car is a Vintage VW then that’s what it is to you, but you can’t expect for it to represent a Vintage VW to everyone else. People will inevitably try to classify a car. If you want your car to be accepted as being within one classification, then you need to understand and follow what the majority view the implied rules as being. However, it’s your car and your rules – build it as you want and accept that others won’t have the same opinion.

Posted by: dp - 20 July 2010 15:06:18

[quote=48REME]I find it unacceptable that cars with semaphores aren't seen as vintage, they represent the second stage of transformation within the old beetle shape and the first step away from ovals, whilst still retaining the semaphores and small lights. [/quote] Totally agree, but if you need to draw a line, where? If all semaphore cars, what about the US cars? If all 30hp cars, what about the other small window cars? If all small window cars, what about the other 6 volt cars? But then surely a 67 split can’t be excluded because it has 12 volts? My personal take is that each classification of a VW (Vintage, Resto Cal, Cal Look, German Look etc etc) has a set of implied rules that mean different things to different people. If in your mind your car is a Vintage VW then that’s what it is to you, but you can’t expect for it to represent a Vintage VW to everyone else. People will inevitably try to classify a car. If you want your car to be accepted as being within one classification, then you need to understand and follow what the majority view the implied rules as being. However, it’s your car and your rules – build it as you want and accept that others won’t have the same opinion.

Posted by: JD - 20 July 2010 15:17:35
All the more reason to encourage post 67 stockers to come to shows. That way, we can [i]all[/i] get to feel smug and superior, not just the split Beetle owners.:lol:

Posted by: 48REME - 20 July 2010 15:18:23
[quote=dp] People will inevitably try to classify a car. If you want your car to be accepted as being within one classification, then you need to understand and follow what the majority view the implied rules as being. However, it’s your car and your rules – build it as you want and accept that others won’t have the same opinion. [/quote] And this is how fun, enriching, interesting and really open-minded this hobby has become. Do I need to fill out a form or something?

Posted by: 48REME - 20 July 2010 15:18:23

[quote=dp] People will inevitably try to classify a car. If you want your car to be accepted as being within one classification, then you need to understand and follow what the majority view the implied rules as being. However, it’s your car and your rules – build it as you want and accept that others won’t have the same opinion. [/quote] And this is how fun, enriching, interesting and really open-minded this hobby has become. Do I need to fill out a form or something?

Posted by: Standard split - 20 July 2010 17:12:28
Typically, the style of many pre-war motorcars was having running boards and a split rear window. This was the period of which the Beetle was conceived and to which it belongs. This pre-war period is considered by early car enthusiasts as the vintage period. It follows that oval window-on Beetles are not really vintage, for a start they use curved glass for the rear window, which is a post-war modern item. They also represent a break away from the original pre-war design. If it has the rectangular rear window it therefore has the larger screen which alters the car's profile, so is not the original shape, and really not vintage. A proper vintage VW has a split rear window, cable brakes and a crash gear box. Thats it and nothing else :beer: Semaphore indicators give any early car a really old feel though:wink:

Posted by: Standard split - 20 July 2010 17:12:28

Typically, the style of many pre-war motorcars was having running boards and a split rear window. This was the period of which the Beetle was conceived and to which it belongs. This pre-war period is considered by early car enthusiasts as the vintage period. It follows that oval window-on Beetles are not really vintage, for a start they use curved glass for the rear window, which is a post-war modern item. They also represent a break away from the original pre-war design. If it has the rectangular rear window it therefore has the larger screen which alters the car's profile, so is not the original shape, and really not vintage. A proper vintage VW has a split rear window, cable brakes and a crash gear box. Thats it and nothing else :beer: Semaphore indicators give any early car a really old feel though:wink:

Posted by: 48REME - 20 July 2010 18:00:58
[quote=Standard split]Typically, the style of many pre-war motorcars was having running boards and a split rear window. This was the period of which the Beetle was conceived and to which it belongs. This pre-war period is considered by early car enthusiasts as the vintage period. It follows that oval window-on Beetles are not really vintage, for a start they use curved glass for the rear window, which is a post-war modern item. They also represent a break away from the original pre-war design. If it has the rectangular rear window it therefore has the larger screen which alters the car's profile, so is not the original shape, and really not vintage. A proper vintage VW has a split rear window, cable brakes and a crash gear box. Thats it and nothing else :beer: Semaphore indicators give any early car a really old feel though:wink: [/quote] Right then! Let's ban all Ovals and even Zwitters (with their bastardised dashboards and modern quarter lights!) for that matter, from serious vintage VW shows. That's when shows will become really interesting with rows of nothing but the same!:lol:

Posted by: 48REME - 20 July 2010 18:00:58

[quote=Standard split]Typically, the style of many pre-war motorcars was having running boards and a split rear window. This was the period of which the Beetle was conceived and to which it belongs. This pre-war period is considered by early car enthusiasts as the vintage period. It follows that oval window-on Beetles are not really vintage, for a start they use curved glass for the rear window, which is a post-war modern item. They also represent a break away from the original pre-war design. If it has the rectangular rear window it therefore has the larger screen which alters the car's profile, so is not the original shape, and really not vintage. A proper vintage VW has a split rear window, cable brakes and a crash gear box. Thats it and nothing else :beer: Semaphore indicators give any early car a really old feel though:wink: [/quote] Right then! Let's ban all Ovals and even Zwitters (with their bastardised dashboards and modern quarter lights!) for that matter, from serious vintage VW shows. That's when shows will become really interesting with rows of nothing but the same!:lol:

Posted by: Standard split - 20 July 2010 18:16:28
[quote=48REME]Right then! Let's ban all Ovals and even Zwitters (with their bastardised dashboards and modern quarter lights!) for that matter, from serious vintage VW shows. That's when shows will become really interesting with rows of nothing but the same!:lol: [/quote] Yep, just the original German People's Car :twisted:

Posted by: JD - 20 July 2010 18:40:32
[quote=Standard split]Yep, just the original German People's Car :twisted: [/quote] Pre war? So that makes what? Three cars?

Posted by: Standard split - 20 July 2010 18:53:17
[quote=JD]Pre war? So that makes what? Three cars?[/quote] Obviously all pre-October 1952 VWs (Standard models for '49-'52), the original pre-war concept and design :wink:

Posted by: GKL 7 - 20 July 2010 19:48:28
[quote=48REME]Right then! Let's ban all Ovals and even Zwitters (with their bastardised dashboards and modern quarter lights!) for that matter, from serious vintage VW shows. [/quote] At last, someone has finally seen the light. :wink:

Posted by: 55Kab - 20 July 2010 21:16:29
[quote=pre67vw]Camberg and Hessisch are special events, and to start allowing cars in that don't fit the theme dilutes them. To me it doesn't matter how rare your car is, that's not the criteria - I'd prefer to see a nice stock oval over a lowered whatever. Camberg has always been pre 57 - with coachbuilts up to 67. I don't see any reason to change it now...[/quote] Well what a thread this has turned into :lol: My last Camberg was 1991 and back then I don't remember it as a stock only show. Pre 57 vehicles yes, but not stock only although the theme obviously was stock. I agree it doesn't matter how rare you car is but going back to my original question on this...the fact that my 55 will not running the OG engine/box/brakes and will be lowered running Fuch does not mean it's not a Vintage VW. I'll concede it's a fine line but given everything else is from 1955 then as far as I'm concerned it's Vintage. Don't want to upset you nice posters but anyone that thinks a Vintage VW is pre 53 is living in a dream world! :lol:

Posted by: 55Kab - 20 July 2010 21:16:29

[quote=pre67vw]Camberg and Hessisch are special events, and to start allowing cars in that don't fit the theme dilutes them. To me it doesn't matter how rare your car is, that's not the criteria - I'd prefer to see a nice stock oval over a lowered whatever. Camberg has always been pre 57 - with coachbuilts up to 67. I don't see any reason to change it now...[/quote] Well what a thread this has turned into :lol: My last Camberg was 1991 and back then I don't remember it as a stock only show. Pre 57 vehicles yes, but not stock only although the theme obviously was stock. I agree it doesn't matter how rare you car is but going back to my original question on this...the fact that my 55 will not running the OG engine/box/brakes and will be lowered running Fuch does not mean it's not a Vintage VW. I'll concede it's a fine line but given everything else is from 1955 then as far as I'm concerned it's Vintage. Don't want to upset you nice posters but anyone that thinks a Vintage VW is pre 53 is living in a dream world! :lol:

Posted by: Standard split - 20 July 2010 21:40:25
[quote=55Kab]Well what a thread this has turned into :lol: Don't want to upset you nice posters but anyone that thinks a Vintage VW is pre 53 is living in a dream world! :lol: [/quote] Don't wake me from my dream world Martin:d I have to say that its a little different when thinking of cabrios as opposed to saloons of which I am usually considering. Karmann cabrios from the 40's 50's have such a vintage charm of their own – they are rather different in style and feel to the saloon, and even the later ones hold a charm. Its only when they went onto the 1303 style that they were really spoiled with the hood resting on the curved screen:wink:

Posted by: Standard split - 20 July 2010 21:40:25

[quote=55Kab]Well what a thread this has turned into :lol: Don't want to upset you nice posters but anyone that thinks a Vintage VW is pre 53 is living in a dream world! :lol: [/quote] Don't wake me from my dream world Martin:d I have to say that its a little different when thinking of cabrios as opposed to saloons of which I am usually considering. Karmann cabrios from the 40's 50's have such a vintage charm of their own – they are rather different in style and feel to the saloon, and even the later ones hold a charm. Its only when they went onto the 1303 style that they were really spoiled with the hood resting on the curved screen:wink:

Posted by: harveypj - 20 July 2010 22:23:26
:roll: Details details........... and who realy cares? Other than hardcore VW nerds, most of the human race recognise a Beetle as a Beetle and nothing more. after all it is partly famous for having lasted 7 decades looking most part the same. (bit like a beetle funny enough :lol:) They are just a fun car that make people smile.......unless you hate them of course, they are a bit Marmite. I just love Beetles.......simples:d :idea: Lets carve up Morris Minors instead :twisted:

Posted by: harveypj - 20 July 2010 22:23:26

:roll: Details details........... and who realy cares? Other than hardcore VW nerds, most of the human race recognise a Beetle as a Beetle and nothing more. after all it is partly famous for having lasted 7 decades looking most part the same. (bit like a beetle funny enough :lol:) They are just a fun car that make people smile.......unless you hate them of course, they are a bit Marmite. I just love Beetles.......simples:d :idea: Lets carve up Morris Minors instead :twisted:

Posted by: JD - 20 July 2010 22:39:37
[quote=harveypj] :idea: Lets carve up Morris Minors instead :twisted: [/quote] Thought you´d never ask! [img]https://hubgarage.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/225237/Route_66_Nikon_D300__326__detail.JPG[/img]

Posted by: mrsherbie - 21 July 2010 00:22:30
[b]I SEE YOU 55KAB..[/b] [img]https://volkspinoy.i.ph/photo/d/2004-1/RearSchwimmer.jpg[/img]

Posted by: 55Kab - 21 July 2010 07:16:12
[quote=mrsherbie][b]I SEE YOU 55KAB..[/b] [img]https://volkspinoy.i.ph/photo/d/2004-1/RearSchwimmer.jpg[/img][/quote] ^^^ :lol: :lol: I like it Anna. :beer: Now, who's got a schwimmer for sale...:oops:

Posted by: oval56 - 21 July 2010 08:11:31
if someone wants a hebmüller i would it trade for a swimmer :lol: :shock: :beer:

Posted by: Standard split - 21 July 2010 10:15:21
[quote=harveypj] Morris Minors…… :twisted: [/quote] None of that language here please :evil: Mind you, you can get a 1949-50 one of those things in good order for less than a decent 1972 1300 Beetle – really :!: Cheap vintage motoring, but your name has to be Toby, and like trains too :wink:

Posted by: Standard split - 21 July 2010 11:50:32
[quote=harveypj]:roll: Details details........... and who realy cares? Other than hardcore VW nerds, most of the human race recognise a Beetle as a Beetle and nothing more. after all it is partly famous for having lasted 7 decades looking most part the same. (bit like a beetle funny enough :lol:) [/quote] The problem with this view is why are we subscribing to a VW site that has a cut-off point of 1967? Just because thereafter Beetles had flat headlights and 12 volt electrics. [b]All[/b] air-cooled Beetles should be catered for if you take this view :twisted: Infact why is it pre67 anyway. August '64 – '67 cars all have the later big windows body which ran until the end in 2003. A much bigger change came in 1964 when the last small side window cars were produced. The small side windows were an original KdF feature right from 1938. Unlike sloping front wings being added to the 12 volt cars, the side windows are a permanent feature on a Beetle, and cannot be swapped. :wink: www.pre65vw.com:twisted:

Posted by: Standard split - 21 July 2010 11:50:32

[quote=harveypj]:roll: Details details........... and who realy cares? Other than hardcore VW nerds, most of the human race recognise a Beetle as a Beetle and nothing more. after all it is partly famous for having lasted 7 decades looking most part the same. (bit like a beetle funny enough :lol:) [/quote] The problem with this view is why are we subscribing to a VW site that has a cut-off point of 1967? Just because thereafter Beetles had flat headlights and 12 volt electrics. [b]All[/b] air-cooled Beetles should be catered for if you take this view :twisted: Infact why is it pre67 anyway. August '64 – '67 cars all have the later big windows body which ran until the end in 2003. A much bigger change came in 1964 when the last small side window cars were produced. The small side windows were an original KdF feature right from 1938. Unlike sloping front wings being added to the 12 volt cars, the side windows are a permanent feature on a Beetle, and cannot be swapped. :wink: www.pre65vw.com:twisted:

Posted by: pre67vw - 21 July 2010 12:53:18
[quote=Standard split] Infact why is it pre67 anyway. August '64 – '67 cars all have the later big windows body which ran until the end in 2003. A much bigger change came in 1964 when the last small side window cars were produced. [/quote] The reason is simple... because it's my site and I own a '65. You are more than welcome to go build your own site and cater for whatever years you want to... :wink: I've never heard of 'Vintage' referring to pre-war, only the standard dates between 1919 and 1930. Veteran cars is pre-1919, and then there is pre-war and post-war. Classic is defined by different dates depending on what country your in, some are over 15 years - some are over 25. Pre-war in terms of VW is pretty restricted, it would include Kdf's, Schwimmers & Kübels. Anything built after the war is post war, regardless of whether or not it looks similar to a pre-war car. The Beetle is a little bit odd compared to most other cars, most other cars had definate body style changes in a particular year, the Beetle was more of a rolling development - split merged into zwitter that merged into oval that merged into big window that merged into upright headlight with many inbetween years having parts from the previous and later years. You can pick your own criteria as to which is the true 'design', but no one else will care.

Posted by: pre67vw - 21 July 2010 12:53:18

[quote=Standard split] Infact why is it pre67 anyway. August '64 – '67 cars all have the later big windows body which ran until the end in 2003. A much bigger change came in 1964 when the last small side window cars were produced. [/quote] The reason is simple... because it's my site and I own a '65. You are more than welcome to go build your own site and cater for whatever years you want to... :wink: I've never heard of 'Vintage' referring to pre-war, only the standard dates between 1919 and 1930. Veteran cars is pre-1919, and then there is pre-war and post-war. Classic is defined by different dates depending on what country your in, some are over 15 years - some are over 25. Pre-war in terms of VW is pretty restricted, it would include Kdf's, Schwimmers & Kübels. Anything built after the war is post war, regardless of whether or not it looks similar to a pre-war car. The Beetle is a little bit odd compared to most other cars, most other cars had definate body style changes in a particular year, the Beetle was more of a rolling development - split merged into zwitter that merged into oval that merged into big window that merged into upright headlight with many inbetween years having parts from the previous and later years. You can pick your own criteria as to which is the true 'design', but no one else will care.

Posted by: pre67vw - 21 July 2010 13:04:30
[quote=55Kab] I agree it doesn't matter how rare you car is but going back to my original question on this...the fact that my 55 will not running the OG engine/box/brakes and will be lowered running Fuch does not mean it's not a Vintage VW. I'll concede it's a fine line but given everything else is from 1955 then as far as I'm concerned it's Vintage. [/quote] OK, so if we can't have 'Vintage' then what is the term that describes early period correct and stock cars? Cos to me, that's what 'Vintage' means. When you say 'Cal-look' that describes a VW lowered at the front, dechromed with big engine. When you say 'Resto-cal' it describes a mostly stock car, lowered on shiny wheels and usually lots of accessories. When you say 'Baja' its a raised up off-roader. When you say 'Vintage' it nicely describes an early car, not necessarily stock (it can include old-speed, accessories, whitewalls, coachbuilt and military). If your car is Vintage then I'm going to start calling mine a Baja - it has most of the parts of a Baja (except some of the fibreglass bits, rollcage and spot lights) :lol:

Posted by: pre67vw - 21 July 2010 13:04:30

[quote=55Kab] I agree it doesn't matter how rare you car is but going back to my original question on this...the fact that my 55 will not running the OG engine/box/brakes and will be lowered running Fuch does not mean it's not a Vintage VW. I'll concede it's a fine line but given everything else is from 1955 then as far as I'm concerned it's Vintage. [/quote] OK, so if we can't have 'Vintage' then what is the term that describes early period correct and stock cars? Cos to me, that's what 'Vintage' means. When you say 'Cal-look' that describes a VW lowered at the front, dechromed with big engine. When you say 'Resto-cal' it describes a mostly stock car, lowered on shiny wheels and usually lots of accessories. When you say 'Baja' its a raised up off-roader. When you say 'Vintage' it nicely describes an early car, not necessarily stock (it can include old-speed, accessories, whitewalls, coachbuilt and military). If your car is Vintage then I'm going to start calling mine a Baja - it has most of the parts of a Baja (except some of the fibreglass bits, rollcage and spot lights) :lol:

Posted by: Standard split - 21 July 2010 14:36:37
[quote=pre67vw]The reason is simple... because it's my site and I own a '65. You are more than welcome to go build your own site and cater for whatever years you want to... :wink: [/quote] I guess that's as good as reason as any :wink:

Posted by: 48REME - 21 July 2010 14:52:39
[quote=Standard split] Infact why is it pre67 anyway. August '64 – '67 cars all have the later big windows body which ran until the end in 2003. A much bigger change came in 1964 when the last small side window cars were produced. The small side windows were an original KdF feature right from 1938. [/quote] So you're almost accepting and embracing the pre-64 cars in the vintage family as they still retain the smaller side windows, that's inconsistently generous of you John. I thought nothing past a matt, three-spoke steering wheeled, banana bumpered oldie would do in your books!:lol:

Posted by: 48REME - 21 July 2010 14:52:39

[quote=Standard split] Infact why is it pre67 anyway. August '64 – '67 cars all have the later big windows body which ran until the end in 2003. A much bigger change came in 1964 when the last small side window cars were produced. The small side windows were an original KdF feature right from 1938. [/quote] So you're almost accepting and embracing the pre-64 cars in the vintage family as they still retain the smaller side windows, that's inconsistently generous of you John. I thought nothing past a matt, three-spoke steering wheeled, banana bumpered oldie would do in your books!:lol:

Posted by: Standard split - 21 July 2010 15:43:10
[quote=48REME]So you're almost accepting and embracing the pre-64 cars in the vintage family as they still retain the smaller side windows, that's inconsistently generous of you John. I thought nothing past a matt, three-spoke steering wheeled, banana bumpered oldie would do in your books!:lol: [/quote] You're right Nicolas nothing but a matt, three-spoke steering wheeled, banana bumpered oldie would do :beer: (I can make room in my garage for your Standard though:d ) I was trying out Rob's reasoning for the pre 67 thing. He's not the only one that regards 1967 as a cut-off, many other clubs and magazines do too. I don't think that the sloping front wing thing is such a deal as the final window change of 1964 is – the last of the original side glass area. So many have put sloping front wings on their 70s Beetles, its easy to do and not a fixture like many other Beetle updates over the years :wink:

Posted by: Standard split - 21 July 2010 15:43:10

[quote=48REME]So you're almost accepting and embracing the pre-64 cars in the vintage family as they still retain the smaller side windows, that's inconsistently generous of you John. I thought nothing past a matt, three-spoke steering wheeled, banana bumpered oldie would do in your books!:lol: [/quote] You're right Nicolas nothing but a matt, three-spoke steering wheeled, banana bumpered oldie would do :beer: (I can make room in my garage for your Standard though:d ) I was trying out Rob's reasoning for the pre 67 thing. He's not the only one that regards 1967 as a cut-off, many other clubs and magazines do too. I don't think that the sloping front wing thing is such a deal as the final window change of 1964 is – the last of the original side glass area. So many have put sloping front wings on their 70s Beetles, its easy to do and not a fixture like many other Beetle updates over the years :wink:

Posted by: Sunroof53 - 21 July 2010 17:02:44
Post 67 beetles lost more than sloping headlamps.the bonnet and engine lid became shorter,bumpers got bigger and 12v electrics became the standard(except on base models).that to me is when they lost the original look.

Posted by: pre67vw - 21 July 2010 17:16:24
[quote=Sunroof53]Post 67 beetles lost more than sloping headlamps.the bonnet and engine lid became shorter,bumpers got bigger and 12v electrics became the standard(except on base models).that to me is when they lost the original look. [/quote] Yep, I agree... :beer:

Posted by: harveypj - 22 July 2010 23:37:36
[quote=Standard split]The problem with this view is why are we subscribing to a VW site that has a cut-off point of 1967? [/quote] Because we are the hardcore VW nerds that appreciate the earlier models. By the way,all this talk about upright headlights... didn't the first VW prototype have upright headlights in 1936, the VW30. So technicaly the sloping lights were a later development.

Posted by: 55Kab - 23 July 2010 09:16:34
[quote=pre67vw]OK, so if we can't have 'Vintage' then what is the term that describes early period correct and stock cars? Cos to me, that's what 'Vintage' means. When you say 'Cal-look' that describes a VW lowered at the front, dechromed with big engine. When you say 'Resto-cal' it describes a mostly stock car, lowered on shiny wheels and usually lots of accessories. When you say 'Baja' its a raised up off-roader. When you say 'Vintage' it nicely describes an early car, not necessarily stock (it can include old-speed, accessories, whitewalls, coachbuilt and military). If your car is Vintage then I'm going to start calling mine a Baja - it has most of the parts of a Baja (except some of the fibreglass bits, rollcage and spot lights) :lol: [/quote] :lol: what makes my car Vintage is the fact it's 55 years old.....nothing to do with the style. That said, I'm going to coin a new term now.....perhaps it's a "Vintage Resto-Cal" :!: :beer:

Posted by: 55Kab - 23 July 2010 09:16:34

[quote=pre67vw]OK, so if we can't have 'Vintage' then what is the term that describes early period correct and stock cars? Cos to me, that's what 'Vintage' means. When you say 'Cal-look' that describes a VW lowered at the front, dechromed with big engine. When you say 'Resto-cal' it describes a mostly stock car, lowered on shiny wheels and usually lots of accessories. When you say 'Baja' its a raised up off-roader. When you say 'Vintage' it nicely describes an early car, not necessarily stock (it can include old-speed, accessories, whitewalls, coachbuilt and military). If your car is Vintage then I'm going to start calling mine a Baja - it has most of the parts of a Baja (except some of the fibreglass bits, rollcage and spot lights) :lol: [/quote] :lol: what makes my car Vintage is the fact it's 55 years old.....nothing to do with the style. That said, I'm going to coin a new term now.....perhaps it's a "Vintage Resto-Cal" :!: :beer:

Posted by: GKL 7 - 25 July 2010 13:57:12
[quote=55Kab]:lol: what makes my car Vintage is the fact it's 55 years old.....nothing to do with the style. That said, I'm going to coin a new term now.....perhaps it's a "Vintage Resto-Cal" :!: :beer: [/quote] A vintage resto-cal that you are not nearly showing us enough of Martin. I'm sure you could post some pics up for us. How far off are you from getting it to Steve Hudson,when that roof goes on you will really feel you have "turned the corner". Pics Please.....

Posted by: GKL 7 - 25 July 2010 13:57:12

[quote=55Kab]:lol: what makes my car Vintage is the fact it's 55 years old.....nothing to do with the style. That said, I'm going to coin a new term now.....perhaps it's a "Vintage Resto-Cal" :!: :beer: [/quote] A vintage resto-cal that you are not nearly showing us enough of Martin. I'm sure you could post some pics up for us. How far off are you from getting it to Steve Hudson,when that roof goes on you will really feel you have "turned the corner". Pics Please.....

Posted by: 55Kab - 25 July 2010 18:00:27
[quote='50 Karmann]A vintage resto-cal that you are not nearly showing us enough of Martin. I'm sure you could post some pics up for us. How far off are you from getting it to Steve Hudson,when that roof goes on you will really feel you have "turned the corner". Pics Please..... [/quote] It's getting there. I'll have a look through my stock or stockish :oops: latest pics and post some up on the thread I started in resto projects. Closing in on Steve and should go to him end of August. She'll be back on all 4 wheels by then and will have the majority of the wiring completed so I know I'll be on the home straight once the top is done.

Posted by: 55Kab - 25 July 2010 18:00:27

[quote='50 Karmann]A vintage resto-cal that you are not nearly showing us enough of Martin. I'm sure you could post some pics up for us. How far off are you from getting it to Steve Hudson,when that roof goes on you will really feel you have "turned the corner". Pics Please..... [/quote] It's getting there. I'll have a look through my stock or stockish :oops: latest pics and post some up on the thread I started in resto projects. Closing in on Steve and should go to him end of August. She'll be back on all 4 wheels by then and will have the majority of the wiring completed so I know I'll be on the home straight once the top is done.

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