VW Stan
2009-02-17T16:41:31Z
Restoration or reproduction?

So where does one stop and the other start?
In getting your ultimate VW restoration finished, you end up with two new reproduction floor pans, wings, New front and rear quarters, front and rear valances, door skins, heater channels and lots and lots of hand-fabricated sections. Then there's the full interior re-trim, engine and gearbox both rebuilt with new innards etc.

Ok, you still have the original roof of the body plus the central tunnel, engine case, gearbox, seat frames, wheels and the boxes and boxes of bits that came off the car like the lights, mirrors and steering wheel etc. (Which you'll probably end up swapping for nice shiny new reproduction items too!)

As long as it still has it's original chassis and body numbers, it's a restoration right?

Yes or no?


Discuss!

:wink:


It's hard to say what my girlfriend does for a living...

...She sells sea shells on the sea shore!
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54 Gertie
2009-02-17T17:41:26Z
Yes it is still a restoration in my opinion! The few cars still left with all original panels are lovely but these are very hard to come by. I feel that it is worth keeping any car on the road, even if half of the metal did not come out of Wolfsburg!:wink:

For example, Half the Hebs on the road were made from "bits" of hebs. :wink:

You still call it a Hebmuller though, dont you?:lol:
William
GKL 7
2009-02-17T19:22:08Z
Yes.

Another question.....You are driving your brand new beetle home from the dealership in 1951.And whack!!!you are hit by a wagon,the car rolls, tumbling over and over several times.
The car has 25KM on the clock,they can repair it but only by replacing the body shell.
Is the car a fake,or has the accident added to it's history?

I think the way you answer this question may influence your answer to the OP.
VW Stan
2009-02-17T19:47:53Z
Originally Posted by: ' 

Yes.

Another question.....You are driving your brand new beetle home from the dealership in 1951.And whack!!!you are hit by a wagon,the car rolls, tumbling over and over several times.
The car has 25KM on the clock,they can repair it but only by replacing the body shell.
Is the car a fake,or has the accident added to it's history?

I think the way you answer this question may influence your answer to the OP.



It's still a 1551 Beetle, but that's completely different to my question!
If the crash happened in 57 and they used an oval shell, is it still a 1951 Beetle?

I'm asking how much of the original car has to survive to be a restoration rather than a re-creation?

For instance,
Would it count using a '50 shell to 'restore' a Hebmuller with just the windscreen and dash being original,
If you managed to get the chassis and body numbers etc from say Heb No6?

Is this now Heb No. 6 restored or a replica?

I think the term 'Fake' only applies if you're trying to deceive.
Most people are quite proud about documenting the level of restoration/re-creation that goes into their projects!

:wink:


It's hard to say what my girlfriend does for a living...

...She sells sea shells on the sea shore!
GKL 7
2009-02-17T19:56:56Z
VW Stan wrote:



I'm asking how much of the original car has to survive to be a restoration rather than a recreation?





Malc,
you originally asked REPRODUCTION now you say RECREATION.
So you may get conflicting answers.

(PS if you've sold the Heb please amend your ad,or tell me how much to make the cheque out for:wink: )
VW Stan
2009-02-17T20:00:01Z
A subtle difference but I get your point!

Reproduction
The action or process of making a copy of something
A copy of a work of art,esp. a print or photograph of a painting
Made to imitate the style of a earlier period or a particular artist or craftsman

Recreation
The action or process of creating something again
A reenactment or simulation of something


Originally Posted by: ' 



(PS if you've sold the Heb please amend your ad,or tell me how much to make the cheque out for:wink: )



You had your chance! :wink:
Another chain... :?
It's hard to say what my girlfriend does for a living...

...She sells sea shells on the sea shore!
GKL 7
2009-02-17T20:08:42Z
VW Stan wrote:


If you managed to get the chassis and body numbers etc from say Heb No6?

I think the term 'Fake' only applies if you're trying to deceive.



Surely to get the numbers from No6 and put them into another car would be setting out with no other intention but to deceive.


I think if you are rebuilding a legit car,original body and chassis numbers, it could be regarded as a restoration no matter how much work is done.
If you have parts of a car.ie missing it's original numbers,then you have made a recreation.
VW Stan
2009-02-17T20:12:30Z
Originally Posted by: ' 



Surely to get the numbers from No6 and put them into another car would be setting out with no other intention but to deceive.


I think if you are rebuilding a legit car,original body and chassis numbers, it could be regarded as a restoration no matter how much work is done.
If you have parts of a car.ie missing it's original numbers,then you have made a recreation.



So how much of the original car has to survive to be a restoration and not a re-creation?

Most, some or not much?

:roll:



It's hard to say what my girlfriend does for a living...

...She sells sea shells on the sea shore!
GKL 7
2009-02-17T20:13:17Z
VW Stan wrote:


You had your chance! :wink:
Another chain... :?



It's not over,until it is over:wink:




Now please discuss Malcs OP.
I have added my 2 cents.
What do YOU think.
GKL 7
2009-02-17T20:17:55Z
OK.FOR THE SAKE OF A FIGURE.

I say more than 50% of the original car,but only if the numbers are included.





Malc.i've got the necessary now,i didn't then:roll:
JD
  •  JD
  • pre67vw Junkie
2009-02-19T10:14:44Z
This (somewhat pointless) discussion goes on in vintage aircraft circles very often.
Say you find an old aircraft in the jungle, corroded to hell. You take it home and work your way through the entire thing, to bring it back to airworthyness. How much of it do you have left at the end? Very little. BUT you can still be said to have restored that plane to airworthy condition.

I always maintain that as long as the parts you are using to perform the restoration of your car/plane/whatever are to all intents and purposes identical, then when they were made - now or sixty years ago - isn´t really relevant.
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "
UserPostedImage
lifeintheslowlane
2009-02-19T14:39:53Z
...But I say just do it and F**k 'em all.
John.
harveypj
2009-02-19T16:44:52Z
Originally Posted by: ' 

OK.FOR THE SAKE OF A FIGURE.

I say more than 50% of the original car,but only if the numbers are included.



Say you was to 'restore' 30% of the original shell and/or pan and then fitted salvaged original doors bonet deck lid and wings. All genuine original correct period. You now have less than 50% of the 'original' left but its still more than 50% 'genuine'

Provided you use genuine correct parts you are 'maintaining'
but I suppose another question, or is it the same question to ask; when does maintaining become restoring?

Add up 50 years of maintaining a cars and you may end up with a restoration.... or do you?
or is it only a restoration if you do all the work at once?

Now I'm :? I think I need a :beer:

All that said I think I agree with George






Stock......the new custom
mrsherbie
2009-02-19T17:25:14Z
lifeintheslowlane wrote:

...But I say just do it and F**k 'em all.



Oh deary me! pensioners should'nt swear! 😳 :lol:

I think I sort of agree with harveypj too. I think a lot depends on the car and its rarity also.

I thought about the most obvious divisions for me personally, and I think 95% ovals for example fall into category 3,4,5.

1. Original = ALL original panels and metal/chrome/trim etc, includes small area repairs to original panels/wings etc. But original interior/headlining. Original regardless of condition.

2. Restored = like above but only NOS/good correct year metal used for repairs, full repaint, retrim but to an exceptionally high level with correct new fabric ( or alternatively an older retrim with attractive period looking fabric) Or even an older full but still exceptional level of restoration, but either way, exactly/or incredibly close to original spec of car, colour etc. There are very few cars like this when you really start being picky, but they stand out.

-------

3. Very correct and still pretty original/a very good car still well worth owning = a car thats maybe had odd larger repairs, valances/channel/s/floor. Wings but only if genuine old not repro. Retrimmed, but in period correct fabric ie. himmelservice or similar, or complete other if a 50's/60's/70's retrim but still tasteful. Maybe incorrect colour and average quality but totally acceptable repaint or better.

4. Fully restored = Lots of the cars that are in the magazines. Usually had new (often cheapo) repro floors + channels + bulkhead+ valances + Repro wings, lots of well hidden body filler under a nice over shiny paintjob, full TMI interior, repro chrome/trims/accessories etc etc blah blah blah boring, but always predictably messed about with. Basically a car that was either a rescued scrapper (OK) OR an ok original car that someone who didnt know any better cleverly removed all the slighly tatty og parts to 'improve' it by completely replacing every part with items made in taiwan :lol:

5. A dogs dinner = Car on wrong pan with multiple butchery rape + pillage. (Although to be fair these cars are ok, so long as you buy them knowing exactly what you are buying :d )

But equally I bet we all see this 'beetle caste system' very differently! So there is'nt really any set answer?!

Oh are'nt generalisations fun and oh so simply offensive to absolutely everyone! :lol:

"it'll wreck the patina you haven't worked so hard to create" - 50Karmann
mrsherbie
2009-02-19T18:15:14Z
VW Stan wrote:

Restoration or reproduction?

So where does one stop and the other start?



Rattletrap deja'vu? Triggers Broom that he has 'maintained and looked after' that has had 17 heads and 14 new handles :lol: :lol: :beer:
"it'll wreck the patina you haven't worked so hard to create" - 50Karmann
54 Gertie
2009-02-19T18:29:50Z
mrsherbie wrote:



Oh deary me! pensioners should'nt swear! 😳 :lol:

I think I sort of agree with harveypj too. I think a lot depends on the car and its rarity also.

I thought about the most obvious divisions for me personally, and I think 95% ovals for example fall into category 3,4,5.

1. Original = ALL original panels and metal/chrome/trim etc, includes small area repairs to original panels/wings etc. But original interior/headlining. Original regardless of condition.

2. Restored = like above but only NOS/good correct year metal used for repairs, full repaint, retrim but to an exceptionally high level with correct new fabric ( or alternatively an older retrim with attractive period looking fabric) Or even an older full but still exceptional level of restoration, but either way, exactly/or incredibly close to original spec of car, colour etc. There are very few cars like this when you really start being picky, but they stand out.

-------

3. Very correct and still pretty original/a very good car still well worth owning = a car thats maybe had odd larger repairs, valances/channel/s/floor. Wings but only if genuine old not repro. Retrimmed, but in period correct fabric ie. himmelservice or similar, or complete other if a 50's/60's/70's retrim but still tasteful. Maybe incorrect colour and average quality but totally acceptable repaint or better.

4. Fully restored = Lots of the cars that are in the magazines. Usually had new (often cheapo) repro floors + channels + bulkhead+ valances + Repro wings, lots of well hidden body filler under a nice over shiny paintjob, full TMI interior, repro chrome/trims/accessories etc etc blah blah blah boring, but always predictably messed about with. Basically a car that was either a rescued scrapper (OK) OR an ok original car that someone who didnt know any better cleverly removed all the slighly tatty og parts to 'improve' it by completely replacing every part with items made in taiwan :lol:

5. A dogs dinner = Car on wrong pan with multiple butchery rape + pillage. (Although to be fair these cars are ok, so long as you buy them knowing exactly what you are buying :d )

But equally I bet we all see this 'beetle caste system' very differently! So there is'nt really any set answer?!

Oh are'nt generalisations fun and oh so simply offensive to absolutely everyone! :lol:




My 63 does not score well on the "Anna-o-meter":cry: Its probably lingering in the high three's! :lol:

Oh well, I still like it!:wink: :lol:
William
GKL 7
2009-02-19T19:25:21Z
http://www.volkszone.co....amp;highlight=epic+boobs 


Far more interesting IMHO :wink:


sorry Rob,but as JD said all a bit pointless.
No one will ever agree on this topic.
54 Gertie
2009-02-19T19:31:01Z
Originally Posted by: ' 

http://www.volkszone.co.uk/VZi/showthread.php?t=507029&highlight=epic+boobs


Far more interesting IMHO:wink:


sorry Rob,but as JD said all a bit pointless.
No one will ever agree on this topic.




:lol:

I was trying to think what you may have seriously linked to on VZi relating to this topic as I havent seen anything!:wink:

William
VW Stan
2009-02-19T20:04:37Z
Where is the "I'll get my coat" smiley?
It's hard to say what my girlfriend does for a living...

...She sells sea shells on the sea shore!
harveypj
2009-02-20T12:33:17Z
Malc, if you take a variation to your signature ...........

Ten percent of sumthin is better than no percent of nuthin 😛
Stock......the new custom
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