zelensis61
2010-08-04T21:28:05Z
This is a strange story, a story that is not invented but confirmed by VW, Wolfsburg.

Like we all know after reading the history of the Hebmüller Type 14 and the end of that great coachwork factory somewhere in 52, we assume that this is the end of the type 14A area.

Now to be honest, I was the same thinking for a long time but….
After getting a mail from a contact person who asked me if there is a Hebmüller with an original Oval dashboard I answered negative. The man wanted to buy such a car thinking it was a rare species.
I asked picts but never got them as the seller did not want to send them to me.

SO , end of story? No

Then there were some questions on several forums about the existing of a Hebmüller with an original oval dashboard. It was in the same period so I started the investigation.

First of all, I checked all possible picts of Hebmüllers on the net and also my own database. None were found but, a contact sent me a pict of an Oval-dash Hebmüller with a bodynr above nr 700.

This car is still around but was last seen some years ago in Germany.
After posting the pict on forums, I got in touch with the owner but not much information was found only that he confirmed me the ownership of that car.
The man still owns the car and he is pretty sure the car is constructed on an Oval-dash body. After getting the VIN of the car, it seems to be first registered in 1954 in Germany.

The promised picts did not arrive yet of that car. Sometimes it takes long time and effort to obtain info on rare cars like Hebmüllers.

Now, after a while, I let it rest as I could not find confirmation on the subject Original Oval-dash Hebmüller. So that was end of story? No it wasn’t.

Then on the Bad Camberg meeting, I was introduced by the South African Hebmüller owner and my friend Ringo, to a man with a huge USA flag base Ball cap.

The man asked me some details on Hebmüllers and while talking to him, I understand he owns one that I did not know of.

We exchanged some info and email addresses and after a while, I probably pushed him so hard that the man in one of his mails confirmed the ownership of a Hebmüller style VW.

Again it took me some time to get the info that I wanted as the VIN nr was send to me.
Bingo, A new Hebmüller for my database. Maybe it was already known by others but for me it was new.

I was getting suspicious about the originality of the car as I did not see one single pict of it. Then he sent me some picts of the car and I started to compare them with what I know.
First thing I noticed it had an Oval dash :roll: There we go again.

I found out the car had on the fire wall some metal pins to hold the sound deadening. This was new to me as it only appears on zwitters according to the book Etzold , DER KAFER I( there is also nr II, III and IV)
But then I noticed that the ashtray had chrome…?
After checking a pict from the trunk side, it was clear that someone had modified the old style hole to add the newer style ashtray.

I was thinking, so it is a clone, ….The man told me that he had looked for welding in regular places and checked if the car was a clipped one but he could not find a non-factory welding seam.

This was a hard one to find out. All the Hebmüller details are correct on the car, from each reinforcement panel to the hood frame.

With all this information it was hard for me to get an identification on the car as an original Hebmüller.

After a while, I checked the details of the car over a contact person inside VW Germany.
Then to my surprise, I got a positive identification.

The car with that VIN was constructed in 1952 somewhere in December. It was delivered and registered in April 1954.
Now that is nothing new as there is no confirmation it is a Hebmüller …..

No, the real odd and interesting thing is that this car is noticed in the old registry in Wolfsburg not as a beetle type 10, not as a beetle type 15 (Karmann) but as a Type 14A :shock:

Now you can say or argue that the front clip could be swapped. I tell you no it is not swapped. The car was constructed in December 52 and that is zwitter area.

Now, to get a bit further in this issue, I have a list of 13 cars made by Karmann. When I compare the VIN from this zwitter area car in the list of the 13 VIN numbers from Karmann, it fits between car 12 and 13 in that list.
So for me it is clear…..this car is nr 14 made by Karmann.

So there you go, I have 2 cars now that are known with Oval dash and one of them is for sure a type 14A. Yes, I write Type 14 A and not Hebmüller.
Why? Well because I know for sure that end of 1950 :shock: there is no longer a contract between Hebmüller and VW. There was a contract to make 675 Hebmüllers and that was it. No more; no less. Only 675 cars ordered by VW. Where the information comes from for an order of 2000 cars is a secret to me but as far as I can check this only 675 made by Hebmüller to fulfill the order.

That is the official record. There are more cars made as you have to count the 33 burned bodies and some complete replacement body’s for the “Kundendienst“

As far as I can check, for me all “Hebmüllers“ above nr 700 are not Hebmüllers but Type 14A cars made with:

A) Complete NOS bodies
B) Constructed at Karmann factory (14 cars made there)
C) Constructed with NOS body panels added to a normal beetle body like one of the cars that was in Hessisch last year (2009).

Now I hope that I can get access to the German car with the oval dash so I can check this one also.

If there is one confirmed, there are more….to be checked.

Now sadly for the man who contacted me in the start of this story, who wanted to buy an oval dash Heb, I must confess that this same car is now this strange and rare zwitter based Type 14 A that he asked for. Sorry for that but it was only recently I found out.

I studied the issue from early 1986 and every day I learn something new.

So if you read this, and have info on Hebmüllers or Type 14A, you can always contact me over this site.

Best regards. Peter SCHEPENS.

The search goes on. Now we are of towards the search of another constructor of type 14a style car. 😎


ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
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Rich Oakley
2010-08-04T21:52:12Z
Peter.

That is fantastic investigation work. I'm sure you can find all 14 Karmann manufactured 14As if you look hard enough! :lol:

Great work and great story.

Rich.
47 Beetle, 56 UK Karmann Cabriolet, 56 UK Beetle, 57 UK Type 2, 59 UK Beetle, 66 UK Fastback.
brille52
2010-08-05T07:34:30Z
Hi Peter !

This is like reading a " Kriminal Roman " !:wink: Great story ! Let`s see, if the "One" I am hunting,will be a 14A !
Good to see you back and " WORKING " !!:wink: :d

a
karmann1952
2010-08-05T10:22:52Z
Great job Peter! For all, here are pictures of both known "oval dasboard hebs".
All numbers you can find on Peters and mine HEBMULLER-Registry:
www.hebmuller-registry.com 

UserPostedImage

http://karmann1952.de/html/hebmuller_1952_3.html 

UserPostedImage

http://karmann1952.de/html/hebmuller_1953_0.html 
- 1950 VW Hebmüller
- 1951 Split sedan Export
- 1952 Karmann Kabriolett
- 1952 T1 barndoor transporter
- 1963 1200 Export Judson
- 1964 T1 Westfalia SO-34 Flipseat
- 1965 Karmann Ghia convertible
- 1966 T1 Westfalia SO-44 Dormobile

visit my homepage:
www.karmann1952.com 
www.hebmuller-registry.com 
www.kabriolett-registry.com 
pre67vw
2010-08-05T11:16:16Z
Very interesting!! Of course just because you have photos of oval dash 14A's doesn't prove they came from the factory with oval dash's, I have photos of a nice blue 14A with a 60's dash :wink:

I'm not saying I don't believe because I do...
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
karmann1952
2010-08-05T14:01:32Z
pre67vw wrote:

Very interesting!! Of course just because you have photos of oval dash 14A's doesn't prove they came from the factory with oval dash's, I have photos of a nice blue 14A with a 60's dash :wink:

I'm not saying I don't believe because I do...



Rob,
Christian G. is in contact with an old Karmann engineer. He is the one who has built the last Hebs at Karmann under his administration. He told us that Karmann didn´t build the dashboards back to split style. They had no reason to do that, he told us. It would be only more work for them. Christian and me wants to interview this old guy soon. We´ll keep in touch :wink:
Claus
- 1950 VW Hebmüller
- 1951 Split sedan Export
- 1952 Karmann Kabriolett
- 1952 T1 barndoor transporter
- 1963 1200 Export Judson
- 1964 T1 Westfalia SO-34 Flipseat
- 1965 Karmann Ghia convertible
- 1966 T1 Westfalia SO-44 Dormobile

visit my homepage:
www.karmann1952.com 
www.hebmuller-registry.com 
www.kabriolett-registry.com 
55Kab
2010-08-05T20:06:47Z
Peter
That is a fantastic story and I believe you're right, Oval dash Heb's are a reality and such a car would be my ultimate Vintage VW.

Claus
If you get to talk to the engineer, can you ask him about early Oval Cabrio producion too. I've spent a lot of time recently trying to research how the car's are to Aug 55 were made, how they were painted, what was painted, what was fitted at Karmann's etc.

I guess I could learn a lot from going through the Karmann archives but question is where are they now?

qwerty
2010-08-08T16:38:58Z
Very interesting. I may be mistaken but I was once told that the Heb that Albert Biehl owned in southern California originally had an oval dash. Story was that he thought it must have been changed by a previous owner, so he changed it to a split dash. I'm sure there is someone in Calif area who can confirm if this is true??
kdf38
2010-08-12T01:59:31Z
That is a story I have also seen before. The would be the one that Roger Dean used
have if I recall correctly.

Albert once also had a split dash Heb that is on the cover of the first "Flat Four"
book.

Mike


qwerty wrote:

Very interesting. I may be mistaken but I was once told that the Heb that Albert Biehl owned in southern California originally had an oval dash. Story was that he thought it must have been changed by a previous owner, so he changed it to a split dash. I'm sure there is someone in Calif area who can confirm if this is true??



Mike
Texas
Nov. 1947 +
Febr 1949 shell