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48REME
13 years ago

It just gets my goat when people try to claim they are more than replicas, desperately trying to give their fake some provenance so that they can get big bucks out of the hobby. Maybe it's just me, I'm getting jaded by the whole thing. 😞

pre67vw wrote:



X2 At the end of the day though, it's never going to sell for the absurd amounts Colome usually advertise their cars for, unless some ignorant plonker falls for its pretty looks. It doesn't even have overriders on the bumpers. It's definitely incomplete and incorrect!:wink:
JD
  • JD
  • pre67vw Junkie
13 years ago

Here are some highlights:





pre67vw wrote:




Ouch! Alright, now I see what you mean. Blimey.:shock:
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "
UserPostedImage
GKL 7
13 years ago

and clamiming it's an original prototype that never got made,It's all bollocks

pre67vw wrote:




That sounds familiar,sure i've heard it before.Now what was that guy's name:wink:
Sunroof53
13 years ago
I dont think that company would have gone to all the expense of tooling for a car if there was no market for it .Clearly there are not enough Hebs for Buyers and its no different to any other reproduced part or car, if you need it or want and can afford it its going to make someone happy.

Also these are not fakes, the word fake is used to describe something claiming to be original and these are not.If i had put that much time into reproducing a car and someone called it a fake i would find that pretty insulting.
Personally i cant work out whether i like hebs or not as i have seen many photos which look really nice but the one at the ivan hirst show did not attract my attention at all.
Maybe they only look good with the hood down :?

I seem to remember some years ago a company in Austrailia making steel hebs so its not a first .
zelensis61
13 years ago
Hello,
For me it is simple. I love the looks of a Type 14a, as you may have noticed.:lol:
Here is my opiniun to the issue.

If it is made at the Hebmuller plant....it is original and period correct.
If it is made at the Karmann plant....it is original and period correct.
If it is made at another constructor..it is origina and period correct.

All this with the idea that it is made between:
- 49 and 51 for Hebmuller
- 51 and 53 for Karmann
- 53 and 54 for other constructors - single attempts
And with the aproval from VW ( except the last period)

The car mentioned here above is for me an exact copy of the original type 14a.
Other cars that are known are copy's. Some are good, other are far away from the original and only have the looks from about 100 meters away.

What Roger Dean is mentioning I asume is that he and Dirk made a lot of effort to create a 100% correct copy. A 100% in my eyes does not exist, there are always cutted-corners.

If I had the money, I whould buy it. Unfortunatly I have'nt bought it yet....:?
Anyone want to donate? :lol:

Best regards.
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
overrestored
13 years ago
I agree.. if it wasn't made back in the day... it's just a repro. A nice repro... but a repro now and forever.

These are the cars that folks that want to hotrod a classic vw should buy. It would be ok to see one of these repro's rolling around with some 200 plus HP type four motor... lowered beam etc.

Imagine one with a "Massive Type Four" Jake Raby engine with fuel injection... CD ignition... nice stereo... disc brakes etc.

More fun than a new Audi R8 I bet... or a Ferrari... or a Lambo etc.

Imagine pulling up to the light in your fake heb... and smoking the 911 guy next to you. You have to admit... that would be really fun.
protect me from what I want
55Kab
13 years ago

I agree.. if it wasn't made back in the day... it's just a repro. A nice repro... but a repro now and forever

overrestored wrote:



That's my view too. If it can't be authenticated as a car built 60 odd years ago then it's not a real heb.

It is however an interesting arguement and reminds me of how this type of thing works in the vintage aviation world.

A few years ago UK housing millionaire Charles Church started what in effect was a production line of restoring Supermarine Spitfire's (the WW2 fighter). The last aircraft that was built by him he was unfortunately killed in when it crashed following engine failure. The interesting thing about this machine was that more than something like 85% of it was remanufactured and people even said the only thing original about it was the Vickers-Supermarine data plate, that still didn't stop everyone calling it a Spitfire and the CAA even classifying it to operate and fly as such.

Then you have the guys in Germany who have replicated to every detail the FW190 German WW2 fighter. Interestingly, in their research they nailed down the details of the last FW190 made and the first new aircraft finished was given a consecutive construction number.


Imagine one with a "Massive Type Four" Jake Raby engine with fuel injection... CD ignition... nice stereo... disc brakes etc.

More fun than a new Audi R8 I bet... or a Ferrari... or a Lambo etc.

Imagine pulling up to the light in your fake heb... and smoking the 911 guy next to you. You have to admit... that would be really fun.

overrestored wrote:




Now you got it :!: :beer:

It would be really fun...and it's the exact reason why my 55 is not stock! :lol:

JD
  • JD
  • pre67vw Junkie
13 years ago

The interesting thing about this machine was that more than something like 85% of it was remanufactured and people even said the only thing original about it was the Vickers-Supermarine data plate, that still didn't stop everyone calling it a Spitfire and the CAA even classifying it to operate and fly as such.


55Kab wrote:



So what made it not BE a Spitfire?

You know - looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....


"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "
UserPostedImage
55Kab
13 years ago

So what made it not BE a Spitfire?

JD wrote:



Same discussion as witnessed on this thread and a kind of play on words, because of course it IS a Spitfire, its just with the majority of it not being manufactured in 1942, a lot of people thought it should be classified as a replica.

usariemen
13 years ago
Well, that car is just a clean builded bastard wich shows how a Hebmüller might
have looked like if it was continued to build them back in the days.
I would not even call it a Heb replica because there was not such a car out of
an oval ever made by or at Hebmüller.
A Heb was made by the Hebmüller company in Wuppertal/Wülfrath and what ever is made today, anywhere, is just your own creation. How ever it looks like.
A while ago they even talked about having the permission of the family or the VW company
to keep on building Hebmüllers. What a bullshit.
Everyone involved in building the originals is dead and the company was closed in the early 50s. So who may give any permition today?
And the VW company will never give any official blessing to such homebrewed stuff.
It looks nice but will never be a Hebmüller to me and not a type 14A either, because that was a VW model and is not produced anymore since 58 years.
Master of my domaine.
Sunroof53
13 years ago

Well, that car is just a clean builded bastard wich shows how a Hebmüller might
have looked like if it was continued to build them back in the days.
I would not even call it a Heb replica because there was not such a car out of
an oval ever made by or at Hebmüller.
A Heb was made by the Hebmüller company in Wuppertal/Wülfrath and what ever is made today, anywhere, is just your own creation. How ever it looks like.
A while ago they even talked about having the permission of the family or the VW company
to keep on building Hebmüllers. What a bullshit.
Everyone involved in building the originals is dead and the company was closed in the early 50s. So who may give any permition today?
And the VW company will never give any official blessing to such homebrewed stuff.
It looks nice but will never be a Hebmüller to me and not a type 14A either, because that was a VW model and is not produced anymore since 58 years.

usariemen wrote:



Thats an interesting point about having permission to build a heb especially if someone copyrites the name as in the recent Okrasa thread.Normally you would have to buy the name from the original manufacturer to do it,or maybe they have?
zelensis61
13 years ago

Thats an interesting point about having permission to build a heb especially if someone copyrites the name as in the recent Okrasa thread.Normally you would have to buy the name from the original manufacturer to do it, or maybe they have?

Sunroof53 wrote:



Here is my point of view :
The coachbuilt constructor name "Karosseriewerke Joseph Hebmüller und söhne" becomes useless when the company is announced as bancrupt.

I have their Banc account nr from those days and their telephone nr from 2 of the 3 locations where they worked....maybe I'll give them a call to ask how much they ask for the name...:roll:

Only Klaus Hebmüller is still alive as a relative from the family but he was not involved in the company itself in those days as he was to young then.

On the other hand... :roll:
Who are we, to write here about some enthousiast who is trying to make some advertisement for his product(s).

I am glad that someone was willing to take some effort to make some 99% correct parts for resto jobs on Type14a or to make a replica.
As long as it will be known as a replica.

What iff someone is making a new shell for a Zelensis....with the original Mould and advertise it as an original?:shock:

Best regards.

And USARIEMEN is correct to say that Hebmüller never made a oval dash type 14a.:beer:
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
Sunroof53
13 years ago
I agree and totally encourage anyone reproducing anything VW to this kind of standard whether it be Gerson making Barn door Buses or the man in his back garden making trim clips. If its something i needed i would be most grateful as most of us are when we restore a car.

I just find it odd that you could start making cars using what is potentially a valuble name and surprised nobody owns the name.if you called that car a Colome roadster for eaxample, would it be so appealing ?.The name adds a lot of value in my opinion which is why i am surprised the hebmuller family never protected it for future generations.
Maybe they are just happy the marque is being remembered ,it certainly is a great legacy.
Dr.D.
13 years ago
Hello folks,

please cool down a little. I really cannot follow your discussion.
I did never claim that my parts are made with "permission" of the Hebmüller family or the "permission" of Volkswagen. I only claim, that they are made the closest possible to the original geometry as far as my deep drawing knowledge allows that. I am proud that the second "Hebmuller spare lid" ever produced by me was sold to Volkswagen. They were very happy to be able to finish a restoration with that lid. Also I am very happy to get to know the very nice Hebmuller family and I am proud that they like the work I am doing. To avoid fraud with my parts, they are all made from a modern deep drawing steel, galvanized and dip coated - so really no possibility for no one to sell them as original parts.
My intention for making these parts was, that I am into old VW s since I was a lad of 17 and - sorry for that - it happened that I became a production engineer in the field of deep drawing. I do not run the Blech-Manufaktur to earn my living and I do not want to add money to each part either. Believe me or not: every hour spent with my daily professional business would be much more effective for my salery. Why am I doing this then? I do this because it is a pleasure to me and I love to recreate these long lost drawing dies.
The money I earn selling the parts is reinvested in the next die. As long as I do not lose my invest, I will continue doing this. Maybe one day, if I do not enjoy this anymore I might stop it or, maybe the "business" will grow until I retire. So I think nobody needs to feel offended (maybe my wife and family for the lack of freetime).
So just lay back. Look at my parts and buy them if you want or need them or just let it be - your decision.

Aircooled greetings
Dr. Dirk Hortig

P.S.: next parts will be my split fenders. No one will be forced to buy them :wink:
usariemen
13 years ago
Hey Dirk
Nobody talked about you or your parts as far as I remember.
It is about that specific car and the US guys wich made that car
and try to advertise it as beeing in a kind of historic continuation of the Hebmüller production. Well, and it is not.
Master of my domaine.
pre67vw
13 years ago
Hi Dirk,

I know that you made these parts because of your love of the car and from what I have seen they are extremely accurate and probably better than the originals. As Usariemen says, this is about the US car claiming that this is continuation of the Hebmüller production. It wouldn't suprise me if they had stamped a 14-00 body number into it as well, just to complete the 'recreation'

Anyway, good to see you posting on the site again - where have you been? Lets see those split wings, I'm sure there's a load of people who would be interested in those - and early heater channels, when is someone going to make good heater channels?

8)
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
Dr.D.
13 years ago
Hi,

I was very busy in my job during the last months and used the little free time I had to finish the reengineering of the 4 sets fender dies. Hope the first ones will be ready for Christmas :wink: In addition I bought a very nice unmolested oct. 49 standard last year, that has never been out of service (always in traffic use). Second owner bought her in autumn 1950 and I bought her from him.
To keep her running, I had to do some mechanical repair on the brakes, crashbox bearings and electrics. But everything works fine now and I was able to keep her in street legal condition and licenced at least up to her 63th birthday. I plan to bring her to Bad Camberg next year.

Heaterchannels are in production but not at my place. I saw some first prototypes from Asia in spring which were basically looking o.k. but were still not 100% accurate in Geometry and craftmanship. The manufacturer planned another (some other?) loops to refine them but I cannot tell anything about the actual status.

Aircooled greetings
Dirk
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