Bjoern, I'm not criticizing the car - it looks amazing and is certainly considerably better than my Heb :rofl:

I think it's more a case of seeing if this car is the benchmark for 'correctness' or not, for that amount of money you would think that it was?

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Its not about you - but if you see all the surviging Hebs, you will find on every car non-correct details. I don't know any 100% perfect car without any mistakes.

I'm glad it's not about me! :thumbup:

I think the fact that there are no 100% perfect Hebs is the reason for 'ste VW e's post, if you're restoring a Heb, it's great to have a car to use as your guide - so you don't repeat mistakes thinking that you're doing the right thing.

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For the asking price I demande a fuel tap!!!:rofl:

:twisted: ET

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I am not having a go at anyone but if all the incorrect parts can be replaced in minuits and the asking price is $225K,a new level of asking price,why hasn't it been done?
Surely if you expect your Hebmuller to sell at a price that insinuates it's the best,then it really needs to be.
Just my opinion,it is a very nice car,but that is BIG money.I'd want it right.

A wise man has spoken!!!:thumbup:

:twisted: ET

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Rob, you haven't understood my last post fully. The very early Deluxe Beetles (1949) were a little like dressed-up Standards as I have mentioned before on this forum. My Deluxe '49 has cable brakes, very unusual on the Deluxe. The Standard black 3 spoke steering wheel was finished in white for these early Deluxes before batches ot the batwing steering wheel arrived at the factory for fitting to all Deluxes there on. I think that this was February 1950. Infact, these early Deluxes are a bit like a pre-production prototype of the model.:d

Therefore, this Heb should have these same parts as my 1949 Deluxe has. This Heb has the incorrect 1950 on rear lights and black rubber mats, which as I said are burgundy (very rare) on my early Deluxe. Remember my car is a low-kilometer one owner unrestored car.:smile:

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About the rubber mats: I think They should be black.
The first hebs were also with the export extra's. Even the car that went to Geneva for the autoshow at end of march 49 had those extra's. The brakes are cabelbrakes.
I do not know all about hebs, but I can say I know a lot and I learn each day more... :d

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Hello
Well, I think any "show me your better car" notes are not appropriate.
I can be an art expert and discuss paintings without owning the Mona Lisa.

About the car.
As beeing the number 323 it is an car wich was built up at Hebmüller in mid december 1949.
Made in Wolfsburg maybe a month earlier.
So it shall not have the big logo hubcaps any more. They should be the small logo ones.
The trim around the windshield should not yet be there. It came later I think.
The taillights should be the ones with the aluminium ring around the glas.
Leather seats might have been an option on very few Hebs but I am sure the very most came with the stock cloth upholstery.
The steering wheel should be the batwing kind. The white threespokes came just on very few of the earliest export models in mid 1949.
On the early exports the rubber mats where still black but in december I think they should be the brown ones.
Why there is no fuel tab is quite a question. There should be one of course. And a speedo cable as well.
The aircleaner is the ordinary mushroon style. Not the Heb kind with the off center outlet.
There is not visible a lot of small details like correct headlights for example.
Such things can´t be judged by those pics. There could be lots of wrong or right details wich would have to be checked at the car himself. Or by more close up pics.
A big issue to me are the missing VIN and build up tags.
As they are not pictured or mentioned I guess they are not there.
With the panels that are available today, some punched digits are not much of a proof that this is a real Heb at all.
Don´t get me wrong. I don´t want to say this is a faked car. Not at all. But on a high end car for an even higher end price I would expect them to be present.
So there could be the only proof of originality a birth certificate by the frame VIN.
At least a clean car with some detail inaccuracies and as it seems with maybe not much proof of identity. If one is willing to pay that amount of money we will see.

Greetings, Carsten.

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Thanks Rob for that succinct post! You are spot on!! :beer:

It's no secret that Mark Schlachter & I are re - building & restoring the "world's worst real heb - # 418" into what we hope to become the "world's best." it would have been a "challenge" as a complete barn - find car in 1985, but she graduated to "the impossible dream" after the famous Heb fire of 1986! (the "other" devastating Heb fire!) imagine what the Hebmuller famly must have felt like on the "morning after" when the fires had been put out and they walked through the tragic remains of their burnt - out Heb - werke!! Luckily for us, the chassis of 418 was in another barn & not affected.

Therefore, with such a tragic starting condition, our project Heb could only get better and never any worse. Since aquiring the car in 1998, Mark had been meticulously collecting parts, expertise & photos for this purpose for over 11 years before (thankfully) selling his baby to me in 2009! Since taking over the project, and leaving it with Mark to complete, I have been diligently pursuing correct documentation / historic photos of Heb 418 / researching previous owner(s) & with some success! From the VIN plate, as well as from an original German Registration Booklet, I was able to apply for & receive a birth certificate from VW as well as a "wagenbelegtkarte" for this car. It's the real thing & I appreciate so much that VW offers this priceless verification service to us dreamers & restorers.

Indeed the "old" German registration document lists earlier owners of this Heb whom I'd love to track down with help (please) !! From the "new" Ohio title, Mark was able to track down the previous owner in Pennsylvania who was enthusiastic & supportive. The fellow explained that he was an ex - U.S. Army serviceman & that he had imported this Heb to the US in 1968, after which he stored it in a barn until selling it on in 1985. The guy was so happy to hear of the car's restoration in progress that he came to Mark's shop last September to visit "his heb" after having said "Auf Wiedersehen" to it 26 years earlier :omg: ! Futher verification for me was a picture of this Heb that had made it into Keith Seume & Bob Shaill's book on Coachbuilts in the late 90's.

While I work on the history & documentation of Heb 418, Mark works on the "correct" ground - up restoration of the car! So whether it's Peter Schepens who is building a Type 14A from scratch, or Mark who is restoring a real Heb, the quest for correctness / expert guidance is the same. And as Rob states above, "it's great to have a car to use as your guide."

My original query was not therefore NOT about the asking price of Heb 323, but instead whether this car (which is being presented as a fresh - resto, top of the tops, among the best in the world Heb, and at a price which definitely IS the top of the tops) really should be a model for our own restoration. Yes it's gorgeous, but is it correct?

Ok ........... Call me a dreamer ............. and I might give her up too after 11 more years!! But even our car isn't yet worth $ 225,000., indeed our story is!

Thanks for YOUR input to our story! :thumbup:

ste VW e

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This sounds nice if you are doing a ground up rebuild how about the production of a book to go with the re-build :thumbup: Say like another VW thats been re-built not so long ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You will have all seen it but if you go to You Tube and put in Heb#6 it may give some of you some pointers or then again it may not. Hope some one can put a link in :thumbup:


Andy W

:beer: Thanks Andy for the head's up.

We've seen much controversy about Heb # 6, and I think that this car is the one that went to Indonesia to be restored once again? I hear also that it's the same team that bought Roger Dean's old Black Heb with the same purpose? Anyone know of the progress on those? Being so close here in Hong Kong, I'll probably fly down to visit, and then add to That Heb - Story when I have more to say.

But for the time - being, it's advice & direction from stories like this & an on - going spirited discussion here that will steer us ALL around similar pot - holes going forward.

And in the absence of such a "BOOK," we'll have to rely on our own private research + threads by hobbyists, restorers with similar experience & experts on respected web - sites like Pre - 67 to guide us along. Indeed in the end, a book just might be a good idea!

Thanks Again Andy & Heb - best Regards :thumbup: ,

Ste VW e

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Both cars are indeed in good hands. The last info I know of is that pld nr 6 is ready or almost ready to be painted. I know the colors..:drool: .
The other car is like it was shipped.....in parts.:omg:
I'll try to find out for you Steve...so you don't have to fly there....Save money for the project. You still miss 50 Euro:p i have heard:omg: .

Best regards. From me.

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Re : Heb 323

The Ad closes like this :

"In closing, this is a tremendous vehicle."

We agree.

"Truly one of the most desirable VW models ever built,"

We Agree.

"and with a restoration at a level that puts it on par with the very best in the world."

Like Carsten's art lovers, we are here to study & to be inspired by the best VW art in the world ----> Hebs!! :beer: So let's continue the lesson.


"It is a genuine, documented car"

This is encouraging :thumbup: as it would seem to be folly to restore to this level a car which was of questionable origin.

** Note that one beautifully - restored car DID just get knocked off the register in 2011 😞 by another "more - genuine car" with the same HEB number.


"that has never been wrecked or rusted"

This is also very encouraging :thumbup: . So why does it not have a fuel reserve tap? Were any Hebs / Beetles made without one at this stage? Surely pre - resto pics of the car will be provided by the seller.

"and it is wonderfully correct and well detailed."

THIS is the comment that concerns me as I am supposed look to this Heb as a model for my own restoration. THIS is why we are now discussing it's "details" & their "correctness."

"This will be the crown jewel of any collection!"

No question about it if this Heb really IS everything it says in that closing statement.


"Asking $225,000 obo"


Supposing I have the money, and want a sensational Heb, I'd just want to verify all of the above first ................. before I sign the check :?

Next Heb Detective :idea: ????

V ery W arm Greetings,

ste VW e

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Beeing "the" model for other restos is not possible.
There where changes at the Hebs as they where at the sedans.
So not all where exactly equal.
This one has the "incorrectnesses" as I statet before.
And maybe even more. As I said there are not all details visible
in the pics. For example, I do not know the VIN but te small gas roll is too old
for it I think.

By the way. This is not a fresh resto anyway.
The car was restored at least four years ago.

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Vielen Dank Herr Hebmuller Junior :beer: !

I Got You, Man! :d

And sooooo nice to meet you here at "The Hebmuller Pub & Cafe!" Pull up a chair and let's have a few more beers & compare notes together with all the other noted Heb detectives here! This & the next '49 rounds are on me! :beer: :beer: :beer:

I admire Carsten what you've done both with your web-site on Hebs, and with the OH SO COOOOL & FUNNY video! :thumbup:



As a kid, I watched the "Sonny & Cher Show" every Friday night while it was on in the late 60's! My favorite song from them (which also applies here) was "A Cowboy's Work is never done!"

As to "Heb 323," I'd be happy with "correct to it's own documentation" ie : A December, 1949 Heb. So let's confine our discussion to exactly THIS car ......... and what's right for IT.

I'm particularly interested in all the "correct" details on THIS car simply because mine is Wolfsburg VIN plate verified no. 418, and is also a December '49 Heb. So that's why my ears and eyes are wide open here ......... so that I don't drive ........ er ..... drag her down a false path, and then get "corrected" later on this forum :rofl:

I look forward to many more beers :beer: with all you Heb Cowboys & Detectives out there! Our Work is never "Done!"

Ride On!!! :thumbup:

ste VW e

P.S. Heb 323 Resto Done 4 years ago? Do you know WHERE & by WHOM? Could be useful to us right now. PM if you wish ........ Ich Danke dir Herzlich!

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No, I do not know who did it and where.
But I got shown pics of it in a workshop with the interior freshly done and not yet installed windsheeld and dash pods. That was four years ago. The work must have been done then or even before.

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i think this is Heb no.6...the one that used to have the ridiculously long bumper irons...pics taken at BC11...met the owner...quite a car collection...first time i'd seen an iPad too!





owners of the really rare early VWs can ask what they like, when they like - whatever the condition
who knows what value the market will bear?
tiny inaccuracies are irrelevant

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Of course they can ask whatever they want.
We will see if it sells at that level.
The Heb market is small but there is still a market.




Well, they are not.
Maybe I am interested in buying and maybe I am no expert.
So I see the description, saying all is correct, matching and perfect.
I pay a top-notch price and at the next meeting I get told what is not perfect.
That would be disappointing.
OK, maybe it would be my own fault if I act on such a level without knowledge.

But it is not irrelevant for one more reason.
If the car is advertised beeing all period correct as it is and nobody discusses
that if it is not the case. People will take it as a standard and we will keep seeing
Hebs with white threespokes or big logo hubcaps over and over again.
Even when it is not correct for 99% of them.
At least I do not mind if it stays that way for ever on that number 323.
Every owner can arrange his car just as he likes.
I have one of these steering wheels also and maybe will use it in the future because I like the look.
It should just not be presented as flawless and "correct".

Carsten

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Interesting to note that I count 5 Heb owners who have commented on this thread, varying opinions, but I guess they're all interested in the outcome...

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