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zelensis61
17 years ago
Hi there.

For all the Heb (kn)ow(n)ers .
i have studied the beloved Hebmuller 2 seater and came to this strange thing. After I checked my list and picts of all existing Heb's ( about 115) I came up this issue....
The californian heb Nr 12 that belonged to Maurey Cole has the engine decklid with rectangular pressings where the licenceplate is mounted.

I have seen Heb nr 5 (oldest) seen picts in detail from Nr 6 and 17 and I can not see those pressings.
I have only seen those on the Heb that was used for the photoshoot way back in 49. There is a pict on the net and in the hebmuller book where you can see the pressings.
Another strange thing on this 49 photoshoot car is a painted part above the frontwindow frame in the roof.

Is there anybody out there that have seen those 2 items on another car..
For me, Heb 12 is the only one with that kin of engine lid.
And then....there is that strange bodynr...118000012 and the second "1"
was a "4" previous?? :shock:
The aufbautag bears also a strange nr. The Hebmuller nr ends with an A.
Anybody noticed this before..
You can check the picts in Colin Burnham's books aircooled VW and classic VW; due to copywright I can not place them here..

If there is somebody with an accurate heb-owner list or car list and want to share them with me you can mail me.
Thanks for the help.
peter
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
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six-o-one
17 years ago
Did the three prototypes built in 1948 and the production test car built in April 1949 have body numbers 1,2,3 and 4?

If so, according to the Aufbau, Heb #5 was built 21st June 1949 making it the first of the 27 cars built during the first month of production. Is this correct?

Then there is something very odd going on with Heb #12
According to the Aufbau pictured in the Colin Burnham Classic Volkswagens Book, it was built on 30th March 1949, about the time of the single production test car!

It's also 818 cars lower than Heb# 5 where there is only 6 between Heb# 5 and Heb# 6. And 19 cars between Heb# 100 and Heb# 132.

As Peter says, there is something very odd about the body number as well - Too many digits. It should be 14 - 00012 (14 plus five digits) to fit with other type 14A Hebmüllers. And it doesn't have the raised bars above and below the body number like #5 has.

I have a theory:
Type 18A Hebs built between 1948 and 1952 started with the body number 18 00000. Could this Heb's body have meant to have been a type 18A hence 18 - 000012 overstamped with a 14 at the start reading as 118 with a faint 4 over the top, and a 2 added on the end? This could make this the production test car used in the photoshoot and explain the one-off engine lid!

What do you think?
:wink:
Lavenham Vintage VW Show - 2012 
Bandwagen | Vintage Volkswagens & Photography 
Hebster52
17 years ago
Just FYI:
Prototype number one (body nr. 14-0001) was finished in the 21 March 1949.

Prototype number two (body nr 14-0002) was finished in January the 8th 1949.

Prototype number three (body nr 14-0003) was finished in June 26th 1949

The fourth testmodel (body nr. 14-0004) was finished in July 18th, 1949
:wink:

Just to make everything more confusing... 😃
The HebsterWerks.
zelensis61
17 years ago
Hey Malc and Kristian.
This theory could work also or is Heb nr 12 actualy car nr 4?

1 :It is possible that this car started his life as a type 18 4 door and was never finished., left in a corner and was rebuilt as a type 14 with parts from pré-production.

2: It was original a type 14, restored with a front body part from a type 18..

3 The man who was responsible for punching the bodynr on this car was born on 29/03/1899.... and was a bit dizzy the day nr 12 was punched .

4 somebody rescued one day the one and only hebengine lid with rectangular pressings , a roof frame, a windscreen surround, found a decent split and dit the unthinkeble....
He made himself a hebmuller a whole lot later then prooduction seized and missed at that time the wright information about Body nrs.
:lol:

And what about the A behind that Hebmuller construction number.

I wish I could get a closer look at nr 12 ?.Anyone knows where the car is now?

I am still looking for people with a car list or a owner list that is accurate..to compare with mine...

Greetings
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
six-o-one
17 years ago
There are pictures in the other Colin Burnham book that show Hebmüller No. 12 definitely has the same rear lid as pictured above.

If the Information on the Aufbar badge is genuine, then I can't see how it can be Heb No. 12?

It was either taken from a Heb 18A during its restoration and not a genuine 14A Tag, which is the more probable explanation.
Or it was built 3 months before Heb No. 5 and is in fact Heb No. 4!

Lots of stuff doesn't add up!

Type 18A Aufbau and body number:  4834.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Lavenham Vintage VW Show - 2012 
Bandwagen | Vintage Volkswagens & Photography 
zelensis
17 years ago
Hi Peter,

In the book Album Coccinelle of Jacky Morel and Fabien Sabatès there is another car with those features, I will send you the pic by mail.
I do not know wich car it is but maybe you will know.

When you go and look on the kabriolett.com site there is a douwnload from the sales brochure on the second page of it the car has also the part above the window frame.
http://users.skynet.be/zelensis 
pre67vw
17 years ago
I have a copy of an old registry list, Heb #12 has no Aufbau listed but the chassis number places it after #5 but before #6. :?

I would say that this is not the correct Aufbau tag, I'm sure the registry would list it if it was known. The stamped body number is a bit of a mystery though. Either stamped wrong, or from a type 18A.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
zelensis61
17 years ago
Here is a part from my list

14-0001 1xxxx-2103 ( info from hebster)
14-0002 1xxxx-0801 ( info from hebster)
14-0003 1xxxx-2606 ( info from hebster)
14-0004 1xxxx-1807 ( info from hebster)
14-0005 18945-2106 ( car nr is higher than car 6 )
14-0006 18939-2607
14-0007
14-0012 18127A-3003 ( heb 17-00083 = 18280 and date 27-5-49
14-0013
14-0014
14-0015 18978-1107
14-0017 189xx-1107
14-0055
14-0056 here somewhere is a fire on 23/07/49 :cry:
14-0062
14-0089
14-0089
14-0093
14-0098
14-0100 19024-0109
14-0103
14-0112
14-0125
14-0132 19043-1310

Oh boy, who can help..... :roll:
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
pre67vw
17 years ago
I'm a believer in finding your own information rather than presenting other people's info as facts. Do we have any other proof of the Aufbau information from Heb #12? It could have been a mix up at the publishers and thats not even a type 14A shown in Colin Burnhams book - when was it blue? I've only ever seen it in brown.

I think #12 in now in Japan, so probably very difficult to get any further information.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
six-o-one
17 years ago
You're right Rob.
We shouldn't believe everything we read, and that book is almost 20 year old now too!

And the Aufbau does point to it being a type 18A.

Anyone remember seeing a blue 18A in the states in 1988! :shock:
Lavenham Vintage VW Show - 2012 
Bandwagen | Vintage Volkswagens & Photography 
zelensis61
17 years ago
Ok Rob, you 've got me on that one :oops: and I agree. :twisted:

But what is that 4 doing under the second 1 in that bodynr ? and the A behind the car nr. :roll:

I have no clue if the paint is blue, grey or primer. What i know is that the pict from Heb 12 outside shows the pressed form around the plate ...
If the Aufbau tag is not from Heb 14-00012 then it must be from Heb 18-00012. that is a possibility.
But until now it stays the only car with that kind of engine lid.... :shock:
Are you sure, rob, it is in japan.... then I must learn japanes in no time.... :roll:
Do you have a list? ( Your friend have one but it is the same as I have ..... :wink: )
Peter
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
six-o-one
17 years ago
Why not start by asking here...

https://vintage-vw.site.ne.jp/ 

Heb #93 and #293 are listed there so they might know the whereabouts of number 12! :wink:
Lavenham Vintage VW Show - 2012 
Bandwagen | Vintage Volkswagens & Photography 
Hebster52
17 years ago
Do you have this Japanese Heb listed? The body number is appearantly sencored but it shows atleas7 that it is a 14-007xx number from 1950..?

https://homepage3.nifty.com/yokohamabusstop/heb.html 
The HebsterWerks.
pre67vw
17 years ago

Ok Rob, you 've got me on that one :oops: and I agree. :twisted:

But what is that 4 doing under the second 1 in that bodynr ? and the A behind the car nr. :roll:

I have no clue if the paint is blue, grey or primer. What i know is that the pict from Heb 12 outside shows the pressed form around the plate ...
If the Aufbau tag is not from Heb 14-00012 then it must be from Heb 18-00012. that is a possibility.
But until now it stays the only car with that kind of engine lid.... :shock:
Are you sure, rob, it is in japan.... then I must learn japanes in no time.... :roll:
Do you have a list? ( Your friend have one but it is the same as I have ..... :wink: )
Peter

"zelensis61" wrote:



Seems pretty unlikely that the Aufbau is from 18-00012, that would just be too much of a coincidence. Maybe it is from Heb #12, I'd just like to see a little more proof. One thing for sure though, the guy that stamped that car had a few to many beers at lunch time!

It does have the prototype style engine lid, but #12 is still very early on in the production so I think its not unreasonable to think that the spares were used up at random before they got into full production. These were tight times not long after the war...

I'm pretty sure its in Japan now.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
zelensis61
14 years ago
Here you see a clear shot of the pict in the book.
The vin is clearly modified. :evil:
From left to right you see 1, 1 with a 4 under it, 8 with a part of the stripe under it, 4 zero's, 1 and 2.
Compared to the nrs on other hebs, the first 1 is to far to the left. The last digit 2 is also to far to the right and to small to match the other digits.
The date code on the aufbau plate is 30 march 49. That is way before the other hebs are made like 5, 6 and later.
The odd thing on the aufbau nrs is that car nr 6 is older then car nr 5 when you sort them on that nr, on the VIN , car nr 5 is older then 6:?

The other pict is confirmed to me as car nr 12, known as the car that was restored and became the Maurey Cole Heb nr 12.
The pict is from the states and the man who send it me is no other then Robert Gilmore. So I am pretty sure it is the same car but I can not see the corners in the picts...:?

I have to find out when they started building the type 18, Ok we have a new goal to find out. :idea:
btw...
My japanese is not progressing like I wished....:roll:  IMG_2042.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.  USA HEB 12.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
usariemen
14 years ago
Hello
Well, I am not convinced the three prototypes where already stamped as type 14.
So the first serial production car from spring 1949 might has been the first 14 - 0001 numbered one.
On that "Nr. 12" the last 2 is smaller than the zeros and the 1. What if it was added later for what ever
reasons along with the 1 and 8 at the front and this car is the Nr. 1? The engine lid with the pressed
number plate corners and the "Aufbaunummer" building date would correspondent to that theory.
Does it have the painted metal sripe below the front edge of the roof?
If it has all these details in all prohability it is older than Nr. 5. To me 14 - 0001
What do you think?
Master of my domaine.
Hebster52
14 years ago
I see the bodynumber as it started out as 18-0001(2?) but later the first 1 was stamped over with a 4 and a 1 in front of it? Not the opposite that the 4 is under the 1 and maybe the 2 was added at the same time too as Carsten was thinking?

Here you see a clear shot of the pict in the book.
The vin is clearly modified. :evil:
From left to right you see 1, 1 with a 4 under it, 8 with a part of the stripe under it, 4 zero's, 1 and 2.
Compared to the nrs on other hebs, the first 1 is to far to the left. The last digit 2 is also to far to the right and to small to match the other digits.
The date code on the aufbau plate is 30 march 49. That is way before the other hebs are made like 5, 6 and later.
The odd thing on the aufbau nrs is that car nr 6 is older then car nr 5 when you sort them on that nr, on the VIN , car nr 5 is older then 6:?

The other pict is confirmed to me as car nr 12, known as the car that was restored and became the Maurey Cole Heb nr 12.
The pict is from the states and the man who send it me is no other then Robert Gilmore. So I am pretty sure it is the same car but I can not see the corners in the picts...:?

I have to find out when they started building the type 18, Ok we have a new goal to find out. :idea:
btw...
My japanese is not progressing like I wished....:roll:

zelensis61 wrote:

The HebsterWerks.
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