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GKL 7
13 years ago

It doesn't sound much, does it? Even for as long ago as 1967. I agree with you, that can't be right.

vintagebug wrote:




Apparantly Dave,they caught VW putting Tatra valves in the back wheels of their Beetles:wink:
Rattletrap
12 years ago
Another name is now being banded around in VW circles – Josef Ganz. Dutch journalist and self acclaimed VW Beetle historian, Paul Schilperoord considers Ganz to be the inspiration behind the VW Beetle. Ganz, a knowledgeable talented Jewish automotive engineer was looking at possibilities for creating a volkswagen (no cap ‘v’ here) – a inexpensive car for the people. In 1930, once he could find support/sponsorship he had a prototype built. It was a two open seater car with a mid-mounted 2 stroke engine. In 1931, he had a second built, interestingly named the Maikäfer, – translates as ‘May-Beetle’. An innovative thing with these cars was claimed to be the tubular swing-axle backbone chassis, an idea which is said to have contributed toward the development of the VW Beetle that we know today. Tatra was infact experimenting with tubular backbone chassis with swing-axle concept as far back as 1920. Indeed, they introduced it in 1923, first using it on their small trucks, interestingly still front engined vehicles.

Ganz worked as a motor critic for a German motoring magazine, his writings of the car industry were very much aimed at the large German car manufacturers, who he accused of building dated, heavy and expensive to run cars. Damage their sales was believed to have resulted, and so to the Government’s income also. In 1933 the Gestapo jailed him.

It is of no surprise that when leaving jail in 1934, Ganz found that Tatra were after him for copyright/patent infringements.:shock:

In 1931 Tatra produced their V570 prototype, a car that bears a remarkable resemblance to the Beetle. The V570 led to the production of the T97, a car that has a chassis and pan layout very much as the Beetle’s including flat-four air-cooled rear engine. This brings us back to the Porsche/Ledwinka friendship and Tatra suing Volkswagen and winning damages from them. Tatra’s claim of copyright/patent infringements apparently relates to the chassis/pan design and the air-cooling arrangements of the T97.:wink:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
pre67vw
12 years ago
Have you read the Ganz book?

It goes into details of Tatra's association with the Gestapo and how they tried to silence him because he was Jewish, plus it goes into details of the patents (some of which Tatra stole or bought) and it also states which patent VW paid out on.. (not the backbone chassis or swing axle or aircooling).

Very interesting read, backed up with a lot of references - but not a dry facts only history book.

Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
Rattletrap
12 years ago
I could write a book on the vintage volkswagen, although I wouldn’t bother because it’s a well worn path – a subject done to death. But if I did, I could bend the truth a little, shunt dates around, then back it up with some grainy images plus the odd bad photocopy of a document. I could then get the book published. And of course, because its all in a quality hard-backed book, written by a guy with years of vintage Beetle experience and knowledge, it must all be factual.

This is a book written by a man who is a self-claimed Beetle historian, he’s an author who is out to make a living as such, and wants to become better known, and so with his Josef Ganz book he has! If anything, a book such as this has tainted the Beetle more as regards Hitler, the Nazis and their treatment of the Jews. I don’t doubt one bit the awful treatment Ganz received from the Gestapo, but I have reservations about the way Tatra is claimed to have treated him.

If you are a car critic/autor/historian, then the VW Beetle is a good platform to start on. Richard Porter, author of Top Gear’s Crap Cars proclaimed the VW Beetle as the worst car ever. As a result he received extra publicity including 30 minutes live air time on BBC's Radio 2 to explain his extraordinary claim in his new book.:x

Further regarding Tatra, Tatra’s T97 was removed from its stand at the 1938 Berlin Motor show – I can’t think why.

I prefer to look at the metal rather than a recently printed sheet of paper, that has some person’s opinions and findings on it. As an owner of the T97 now for 8 years, as well as more Beetles than I can remember, I can see exactly what Tatra were annoyed about:wink:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
lifeintheslowlane
12 years ago
That's a pretty scathing attack on the integrity of an author and of his book you don't seem to have had time to read but plenty of time to dismiss as fiction.

You wonder why people seem to have a downer on you. I can't believe your blind arrogance...it seems you believe the rest of the world is out of step.:roll:
John.
pre67vw
12 years ago

I could then get the book published. And of course, because its all in a quality hard-backed book, written by a guy with years of vintage Beetle experience and knowledge, it must all be factual.

Rattletrap wrote:



I've yet to read anything from you that I'm convinced is factual, so I guess it takes more than that...

It's clear that you haven't read the book, you should - it's a good read. How has this book tainted the Beetle more as regards Hitler and the Nazis? is that even possible?

There were a lot of cars that were each a progression of something previous. My opinion is that trying to find 'the real Beetle prototype' from any other manufacturer (including Ganz or Tatra) is completely pointless, no car has ever been designed that didn't make use of some previous technology. It's interesting to see what was happening around that time, including the ideas of Josef Ganz, seeing what Tatra were up to, and also looking at some other manufacturers all trying to build a peoples car - but the 'real' Beetle prototype was the V1.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
Rattletrap
12 years ago

That's a pretty scathing attack on the integrity of an author and of his book you don't seem to have had time to read but plenty of time to dismiss as fiction.

You wonder why people seem to have a downer on you. I can't believe your blind arrogance...it seems you believe the rest of the world is out of step.:roll:

lifeintheslowlane wrote:


You mean like when I post an image proving my car's authenticity only to have someone accuse me of 'Photoshopping' it.:thumbdn:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
lifeintheslowlane
12 years ago

You mean like when I post an image proving my car's authenticity only to have someone accuse me of 'Photoshopping' it.:thumbdn:

Rattletrap wrote:



NO! Like when you make a scathing attack on the integrity of an author and of his book you don't seem to have had time to read but plenty of time to dismiss as fiction.

or do you have a blind-spot for questions you have no answer for?
John.
Rattletrap
12 years ago

NO! Like when you make a scathing attack on the integrity of an author and of his book you don't seem to have had time to read but plenty of time to dismiss as fiction.

or do you have a blind-spot for questions you have no answer for?

lifeintheslowlane wrote:


I was referring to attacks on the integrity of some of my posts by a few individuals, regarding my claims and comments re the Tatra and also my Beetle.:bored:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
lifeintheslowlane
12 years ago

I was referring to attacks on the integrity of some of my posts by a few individuals, regarding my claims and comments re the Tatra and also my Beetle.:bored:

Rattletrap wrote:



Again you evade the question. Even the most intellectually challenged realise to criticise the content of a book...you first have to read it.

I'm not commenting on anything else.
John.
rudolf hucker
12 years ago

I remember seeing one of those for the first time quite a few years ago, down at the Karmann Konnection swap meet. It was a very rough orange one, I couldn't work out what it was - the engine looked like a big VW one and with the split rear window. :?

Very cool!

pre67vw wrote:



I think the orange one is still owned by Mr Caton
Mike Peckham
12 years ago

You mean like when I post an image proving my car's authenticity only to have someone accuse me of 'Photoshopping' it.:thumbdn:

Rattletrap wrote:



I think it was me who raised the question of photoshopping, but my offer still stands. I’d love to come and have a look at the car and then apologise to you on this forum for suggesting the image was photoshopped. If indeed it was… :wink:

Mike :thumbup:

ps: I'm free this weekend :smile:

July 1957 UK supplied RHD Oval. 1972 World Champion Beetle. 1978 UK supplied RHD 1303LS Cabriolet. 1973 UK supplied RHD 1303s.
GKL 7
12 years ago

I think it was me

Mike Peckham wrote:




Mike "Adobe" Peckham :thumbup:
Rattletrap
12 years ago

I think the orange one is still owned by Mr Caton

rudolf hucker wrote:


The car in question is a Tatra Tatraplan. As far removed from the T97 as a 1303s Beetle is from a KdF Wagen.

I think it was me who raised the question of photoshopping, but my offer still stands. I’d love to come and have a look at the car and then apologise to you on this forum for suggesting the image was photoshopped. If indeed it was… :wink:

Mike :thumbup:

ps: I'm free this weekend :smile:

Mike Peckham wrote:


I think that you are referring to Rattletrap's chassis image that I posted being tampered with Mike, but indeed it wasn't touched I promise you.:wink:

Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Mike Peckham
12 years ago

I think that you are referring to Rattletrap's chassis image that I posted being tampered with Mike, but indeed it wasn't touched I promise you.:wink:

Rattletrap wrote:



Which can only mean that the chassis was replaced again after the rebuild. Have you any idea why that was done or who would have done it? It seems strange that someone would go to the trouble of replacing the post 08/55 chassis the car had been on since the early seventies, especially after it had had new pans dropped in during the rebuild.

I'd still like to come and see the car, just to satisfy my curiosity you understand.

Mike :wink:
July 1957 UK supplied RHD Oval. 1972 World Champion Beetle. 1978 UK supplied RHD 1303LS Cabriolet. 1973 UK supplied RHD 1303s.
lifeintheslowlane
12 years ago

Which can only mean that the chassis was replaced again after the rebuild. Have you any idea why that was done or who would have done it? It seems strange that someone would go to the trouble of replacing the post 08/55 chassis the car had been on since the early seventies, especially after it had had new pans dropped in during the rebuild.

I'd still like to come and see the car, just to satisfy my curiosity you understand.

Mike :wink:

Mike Peckham wrote:



NO NO NO NO F***KING NO! He's tricked you into another highjack...PM him if you want to discuss it further!
John.
pre67vw
12 years ago

NO NO NO NO F***KING NO!!

lifeintheslowlane wrote:



Agreed and locked.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
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