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Standard split
13 years ago

Sorry, but I don't see anything that even remotely resembles a VW engine in that pic.

bruce wrote:



No, I didn't say it looked like a VW engine – but nonetheless it is an air-cooled four horizontally opposed cylinders, rear mounted engine, as the Beetle's is, which makes it a lot closer than the T87's V8 and most other car engines I know of :wink:

Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Standard split
13 years ago

THis one comes close to the proto ....
https://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=https://mercedesbenzblogphotodb.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/rear-engine-vehicles-of-the-1930s-part-iv.jpg&imgrefurl=https://mercedes-benz-blog-trivia.blogspot.com/2010/02/mercedes-benz-blog-trivia-rear-engine_7375.html&usg=__jJxZrk6zRP0W6iPYGYpwRYT5S8Q=&h=894&w=1280&sz=353&hl=nl&start=29&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=tYf652slBPQhsM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmercedes%2B150%2Bmittelmotor%2B1934%26start%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1R2GGIK_nlBE330%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1 

Greetings

zelensis61 wrote:



No, it has a mid-mounted in-line four cylinder engine for a start ……:?
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
zelensis61
13 years ago

No, it has a mid-mounted in-line four cylinder engine for a start ……:?

Standard split wrote:



You ar right but what about the body....
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
Standard split
13 years ago

You ar right but what about the body....

zelensis61 wrote:


You really haven't read this thread properly :roll:

Its not just down to the shape – its also what is underneath the body – what makes it drive. The Mercedes is not much like a Beelte under its skin. The Tatra 97 very much is. And as Hitler though, has a similar appearance. VW paid out to Tatra (no-one-else) for Ferdinand Porsche's copying, a historical fact :evil:

All the other similar looking cars that people keep finding and placing on this thread have nothing at all to do with the Beetle's beginnings 😳

Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
zelensis61
13 years ago
From the first post :

I guess that you would not want to disappoint Mr Hitler Porsche admitted to "looking over his friend Ledwinka's shoulder" when creating the Volkswagen. It seems that many of Ledwinka's ideas may have found their way into the German People's car.



Ok and sorry for the mistake: Maybe I misread it in august 2006 but the main goal was to know about the prototype had something to do with the tatra?
You are right about the engine and gearbox setup, chassis and springset up.
I was only pointing towards the body. And compairing the bodylines from the 1500 sportcoupé from Mercedes , knowing the first cars are made at Mercedes, with the Beetle V3 and later V30, I see also a lot of simularity in both cars.

And Porsche was working before the VW area at Mercedes...or am I wrong also?:wink:
ZELENSIS, coachbuilt body from the 50's on a vw platform made in Belgium. Peter the heb detective
Standard split
13 years ago



You are right about the engine and gearbox setup, chassis and springset up.
I was only pointing towards the body. And compairing the bodylines from the 1500 sportcoupé from Mercedes , knowing the first cars are made at Mercedes, with the Beetle V3 and later V30, I see also a lot of simularity in both cars.

And Porsche was working before the VW area at Mercedes...or am I wrong also?:wink:

zelensis61 wrote:


The Mercedes connection you mention is of course spot-on :beer:

As far as the Tatra claim against Volkswagen (who eventually paid out in 1962!) for copyright infringements of the T97, these relate more to layout and mechanicals. There is a picture of the Tatra T97 chassis earlier in this thread – note the similarity :shock:

Put 'Tatra Volkswagen' or 'Tatra T97 VW Beetle' into your search engine and you'll see several other sites that deal with this subject :wink:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Standard split
13 years ago
Here's a shot of the driver's view in the T97, and you thought that the split window Beetle's 2 glove compartments were small…

Note the suicide doors too :?
 T97 Dash layout.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Rattletrap
13 years ago
This day back in 1945…

While the invited guests of the French in Baden-Baden, Professor Porsche, Ferry Porsche and Anton Piech were arrested as war criminals. (Thanks to pre67vw for the above info, reminder and image)

Also of note, in 1945, Tatra designer Hans Ledwinka was imprisoned after the war by the new Communist-ruled Czechoslovakian government for 'helping the Nazis'. His Tatra T97, was believed by some (including Hitler) as the car that formed the basis of the VW 'Beetle' (KdF Wagen), and is regarded by many as the real 'Beetle' prototype. Porsche regularly crossed the border to meet his friend Ledwinka while designing the German 'People's Car'. Volkswagen later paid-out huge damages to Tatra for copyright infringements.   Ferry Porsche and Anton Piech.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Rattletrap
13 years ago
The fate of Ledwinka and Porsche, as well as their respective cars could not be more different. While the Beetle went on after the war to become a world-wide success earning Porsche a royalty for each Beetle manufactured (over 20 million), Ledwinka died in relative poverty, his Tatra T97 scrapped by Hitler was never resurrected.

The Tatra marque held behind the Iron Curtain, was controlled largely by the new Communist government with vehicles being available only to officials :evil:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Rattletrap
13 years ago
Wikipedia also make mention of the Tatra-VW link, though Volkswagen themselves never mention the 'T' word :arrow:  Wikepidea VW.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Rattletrap
13 years ago
The Real Beetle Prototype?

Sorry, couldn't resist :lol:  Picture 2.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
Rattletrap
13 years ago
James May:rofl: of Top Gear may hate the Beetle and be a fool to boot, but if you check this out, he has one thing correct in his 'I hate the Beetle' rant – that the Beetle owes its existence as we know it to Tatra's Ledwinka, the T97 creator:shock:
Rattletrap – the Volkswagen Beetle that has covered an incredible mileage equivalent to over 35 times around the planet :omg:
Running nifty since 1950… the King of Volkswagens:beer: Why not make friends with this famous little VW – he's on facebook! :d
http://forums.pre67vw.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=16378 
JD
  • JD
  • pre67vw Junkie
13 years ago
I´d like to think that this is the Beetles spiritual father. The Auto Union Typ 56.
I´d like to think...

https://home.exetel.com.au/seasalt/Komenda.html 
"John, you need to get a grip and STOP MOANING AT EVERYTHING. ThumbDown "
UserPostedImage
pre67vw
13 years ago
I think the real story is more complex, with designers not working in secrecy but sharing ideas and talking to each other - so it's very difficult to say who came up with what.

In 1931 Porsche designed the Zündapp type 12 which is very similar to the early Beetle designs, according to wikipedia (which is often wrong) this is the first time the name Volkswagen was used - Auto für Jedermann ("car for everyone").

There are claims then that Porsche visited Josef Ganz prior to this to test drive the Ganz designed Maikäfer prototype and that the Zündapp type 12 was based on many of the ideas Josef Ganz had put into this car.

This pre-dates the Tatra story and shows ideas such as the back bone chassis and rear engine already in place...  1-PORS1.JPG You have insufficient rights to see the content.  M-K_nr4_1933.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
Ovaltine
13 years ago
Out of the three Top Gear presenters, its clear that May has some degree of University education. The trouble is with his rant is that much of it is correct. Some of today's treasured KdF Beetles were assembled by slave labour, people that were starved and died under the Nazis. I once saw some appalling archive footage taken in the factory during the war to that effect.

The Beetle's foundations are to a degree laid on the appalling treatment of human beings by the Nazis. If you really love the Beetle you cannot really despise the Nazis and be completely appalled by their actions, it is a contradiction. The British saved it so what the beginnings are the same. May's one stupid comment in his rant however is that he said its a rubbish car, which of course its not, and he gave no sensible reason why he thought so.

Why doesn't he hate the Golf, Polo etc, their roots go back to the exact same place.:?
The way to end a good day out with your Split is with an Ovaltine!
Ovaltine
13 years ago
I've never thought that Tatra had any link with the Beetle, but Volkswagen paying damages to Tatra does suggests there is. If this story is correct I'd say a surviving 1937 Tatra is more historic than the newly reconstructed VW38. Hitler may have well kicked the Tatra when he saw it (apparently he ordered that 97s all be destroyed)and Porsche may have touched it when he was copying it. Certainly neither have been near that VW38.
The way to end a good day out with your Split is with an Ovaltine!
GKL 7
13 years ago

If you really love the Beetle you cannot really despise the Nazis and be completely appalled by their actions, it is a contradiction.

Ovaltine wrote:





Aye Aye!Where's this going?
54 Gertie
13 years ago

Out of the three Top Gear presenters, its clear that May has some degree of University education.

Ovaltine wrote:



Why does whether he went to university or not make any difference? I'm pretty sure no university, in this country anyway, does 'Tatra and pre war automobile' studies.

Or is just a case of 'He's a better person becasue he went to universty' thing?

May's one stupid comment in his rant however is that he said its a rubbish car, which of course its not, and he gave no sensible reason why he thought so

Ovaltine wrote:



Thats his opinion. It's not a particularly great car, compared to other albeit more expensive models of the era (50's, 60s etc). Sure they were usually very reliable and went on forever, but they were also loud, harsh things with almost zero luggage room.

newly reconstructed VW38

Ovaltine wrote:



Dont even get me started...

Certainly neither have been near that VW38

Ovaltine wrote:



O RLY?
William
pre67vw
13 years ago

If you really love the Beetle you cannot really despise the Nazis and be completely appalled by their actions, it is a contradiction.

Ovaltine wrote:



Well well well, what a fascinating insight into your personal beliefs... It certainly does explain a lot.

I can honestly say that I am totally appalled by the Nazi actions, and yet I am indeed a fan of the Beetle.

Although I don't like censorship, there is no room on this site for anyone who sympathises with the Nazis (or uses the topic to troll) - so unfortunately, that post gets you a ban.
Rob Amos
Happiness is a stock VW
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