great amazing link, thanks.

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I seem to remember at the end of 1999 it being said by many that the 21st Century will not truly begin until 2001! 2000 not belonging to the 20th or 21st Century:?:

As far as 40's Beetles go, I have got to the stage where my cut-off point for the really interesting cars is when VW went from the original 3 ribs inside under the rear window to the more common single rib from early (March?)1948 onwards. Pre-early '48 to me is the Daddy of all old VW's. Not long after this the Beetle lost its original style flat floorpan too :wink:

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I am also older if not always wiser; today is my 50th birthday.
I got a chuckle earlier from you, so hopefully you'll get the same...

:? :? :?
That's insane?!?

:shock: 😛 😃 only a joke.

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sorry i do not understand? what is your joke :?:

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Lee,
The joke was only saying "That's insane" [And trying to use the same smileys :oops: ] to you for saying you are ready to sell your split so soon. Only because you said the same words earlier in the post. I meant nothing bad by saying that.

Mike

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oh i see now. No no offence taken. I to regret that im planning to sell it next year, but for me the fun is in building them (cars). I normally put so much effort into them that i dont want to drive them incase they get ruined. Also there are so many cars out there on my wish list, but i only have limited money and workshop space for two cars max! couldnt leave my 49 outside!

Prototypes, there is a great Youtube short documentary featuring both the w30 and v3/3. on the thread next to this one (KDF youtube).

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This VW prototype looks a little different from the two recreations recently completed. I think the final prototype and production Beetle were better looking cars :!:

I've shown it next to the 1937 Tatra T97 for comparison. It's interesting to remember when looking at these two cars together that they both share a very similar layout under the skin. Both with their swing rear axles and rear air-cooled flat-four engines. Both also have most of their front luggage area taken up by the fuel tank. They both even have the quirky inner glass rear window arrangement and suicide doors too. The VW has the luxury of two windscreen wipers though :!:

This is the 1930's remember, not much else on the road was like these two. Coincidence :?:

Well why did VW make such a large payout to Tatra :wink:  12571.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.

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VW paid the compensation because Tarta sued them for copying the construction of the floorpan and chassis. Not the bodyshape...

The bodyshape was the latest in the cardesigns on that decade.. Lots of other cars making the same type of designs during the 30's.. :wink:

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Nobody did say it was the body shape :!:

I am making the point that Tatra's claim was to do with the chassis and mechanical layout – swing axles, rear-engine flat-four air-cooled engine. But not just the pan design. However the picture I posted does show a remarkable similarity in frontal appearance, not much else had a snout like these two. Sure there were other 'streamliners' in the 30s, they usually had front engines and ugly radiator grills. Both these cars also have their front boot area devoted to the fuel tank and spare wheel.

Owning a T97 as well as early VWs, I can assure you there is a similarity that no other car has with the Volkswagen :wink:

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This looks sooo close to the early prototypes...

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:arrow:  12676.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.

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Seen the Mercedes before. Does have a good body likeness for sure. I wonder if Porsche had a hand in this :?:

The Tatra T97 goes back to 1931, which I would think judging by the style is before the Mercedes. Wonder what is the mechanical set-up is under the body :?:

Prototype above looks like the red one VW recreated (V3?)

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Yes, he did. The M-B 170H (posted by Rob) was from 1935-36 and designed by F. Porsche. It had a rearengine too. The M-B 130 was a few year earlier with similar construction but bodylines were just slightly more squarish.

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Erwin Komenda was also involved in a lot of these cars as well.

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The merc is from 1935 I think, rear engine but water cooled I believe. I always imagined that the T97 was huge compared to a Beetle, although there must have been some basis to the VW court settlement to Tatra over the design infringements.  12689.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.

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THE VOLKSWAGEN CONNECTION

It's not difficult to spot the close resemblance between the T97 and the Volkswagen Beetle. That's because their history and development have overlapped. For several years during the 1930s - whilst Tatra was working on the construction of the 1931 and 1933 rear-engined aerodynamic prototypes and Porsche was developing the Volkswagen (VW) KdF-Wagen - Hans Ledwinka and Ferdinand Porsche regulary met to discuss their automotive work and designs. As Porsche later admitted in his own words he occasionally 'looked over the shoulder' of his contemporary.

When the T97 was introduced in 1936 it was perhaps the most advanced small car in the world. But Porsche was still working on the development of the VW KdF-Wagen under an enourmous time pressure from Adolf Hitler, who wanted to use the car for his promotion purposes. Hitler however considered the T97 to be too similar to his KdF-Wagen which was to be produced at the new Volkswagen factory in Wolfsburg, Germany, even though the T97 was listed at more then five and a half times the KdF-Wagen's target selling price. In 1939 Hitler ordered to remove the T97 and the popular T57 from the Berlin Autosalon because of their close resemblance to the KdF-Wagen which was introduced at the 1939 Autosalon.

https://www.tatra.demon.nl/cars_history_T97.htm 

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The Tatra T97 is a small car, and is exactly the same width as the Beetle. It has a four-door body so it's a little longer. The T87, the (V8) is the huge car, and it really is :!: The Nazis loved this powerfull V8 wonder car, so production continued, but the T97 as mentioned above, was killed-off. You have to see and experience the flat-four T97 to realise just how it and the Beetle share so much from the pre-war days.

My collection has the T97, the T87 and of course early VWs, so I know first hand these cars. But let me make clear, the old Beetle is a brilliant car, nothing has or will touch it, but it's a credit to both Ledvinka and Porsche:wink:

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Is that an offer? :wink:

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In the late 1930s it became clear that VW had used several patents of the Tatra factory. It's likely Porsche used these patents because of the enourmous presure from Hitler to develop the KdF-Wagen in a short time and on a tight budget. Just before the outbrake of WWII Tatra had ten legal claims against VW for infringement of patents. Although Porsche was about to make a settlement with Tatra, Hitler stopped him and told Porsche he would "solve this problem". Shortly after he invaded Czechoslovakia and gained control over the Tatra factory. Hitler immediately stopped the production of the T97 after only 508 cars were built. The T97's big brother, the V8-powered T87, did remain in production during the first years of the war. The T87 was considered by German high command as the ultimate car for the new German Autobahns and was a real favourite amongst German officers.

After the war the KdF-Wagen went on to international stardom as the VW Beetle selling millions and millions of cars, while Tatra found itself stranded behind the iron curtain under a new Communist government who told Tatra what they could and couldn't produce and export. The lawsuit case of the patents was re-opened after the war and dragged on for years, ending in 1961 when VW eventually made a settlement paying Tatra a mere DM 3,000,000.-. Ledwinka never received any money himself and died in relative obscurity in 1967. Porsche later admitted that during the construction of the KdF-Wagen in the 1930s he "occasionally looked over the shoulder of Ledwinka".

I would love to get the T97 to a VW show :wink:

However, if this happens it will probably be on a trailer 😃

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I'll come down and drive it for you John 😃